FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby yuppie » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:34 pm

Well at least the Kenyan politicians are enjoying themselves at the world cup

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-44806710

And they try to justify it.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby alfie » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:08 pm

Cannot believe Sussex is calling for Southgate to be sacked . In fact I thought his first post on those lines after the game was an attempt at irony...

I will accept that a lot of people on here know more about this game than I ; and Sussex you seem to be one of them . Doesn't mean you're always right though.

Could Southgate have made changes that would have changed the result in this match ? Well , maybe : since England lost it is hard to argue that doing something different might have improved things , and since the final result is all that counts in a knockout , couldn't have done any worse.
But consider : despite their superiority after half time Croatia only scored twice . Over the same time England had several opportunities to score at least once ...so surely it was the failure to finish that actually cost them a draw at worst. Not saying Southgates tactics were all right - a lot of opinion comes into that judgement - but given the players he had at his disposal I'd suggest he has been right a lot more than the other. And to suggest he is tactically clueless and should be shown the door strikes me as just the sort of foolishness that has held English football back for years.

After the 2016 debacle this man has come in cold to a team further upset by a short lived coaching disaster ; and in less than two years has taken it to a World Cup semi final (never mind who they played ; you can only beat the opponent you face) and perhaps more importantly won back a nation which had largely come to despise its team and now seems - largely - ready to support it through what any rational person knows will be a period requiring further improvement.
Southgate acknowledges that ; as he acknowledges his own shortcomings from which intends to learn as he goes on .

Whether England do in fact move on and up from here , addressing the obvious weaknesses and building on their strengths ; or relapse into mediocrity and leave this as bit of a lucky fluke , will be the reason to judge Southgate . I know people will all be disappointed by this exit ; but wanting to compound this disappointment by making a quick exit for the most successful coach England have had this century strikes me as...frankly nuts.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:22 pm

I presume England didn't have a tactic not to close down space in midfield, I thought they must have been too tired later in the game to do so. The game was far too open. Conversely, Croatia closed the game better as the game went on.

The role of Kane was curious. It's the first time I've ever seen him, in this WC (the last three games). He added little, and I couldn't see what his strengths are. Presumably he plays so deep because he's more of a Sheringham than a Shearer, but he didn't link up with the other forwards much and had little time on the ball. I thought he was England's world class player?

It sounds a bit like Sussex is evaluating England's performances as if they are a Spain of eight years ago, or Germany of the eighties. But the impression I got was that England are barely a middle ranked nation. If so, beating Columbia and Sweden represented good results and an encouraging marshalling of resources, even if in clearly flawed displays.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby GG - Amir Sohail » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:20 pm

Sterling, Vardy and Kane must have scored about 70 premier league goals between them last season, yet England can barely muster shots on target against Colombia, Sweden and Croatia.

Southgate got his tactics all wrong. But it was good to see England win a shootout and he at least seems to have instilled a better mentality and culture round the national team. Perhaps he needs a more tactically aware assistant manager or something. Subbing Sterling rather than Alli yesterday was a mad decision. The latter looked absolutely gassed and failed to close down the right back and Modric on numerous occasions.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:38 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:It sounds a bit like Sussex is evaluating England's performances as if they are a Spain of eight years ago, or Germany of the eighties. But the impression I got was that England are barely a middle ranked nation


If you take the pinnacle of World Football to be the Champions League, which is the best standard out there, England had the 5th most minutes in the last year for players from its nation playing, only very slightly behind Argentina and Germany. I think in the final, a quick look suggests we had the 2nd most players out of any nation on the pitch, but the most (Spain) had less actual minutes in the game combined. If the top game in world football has English players forming the most time on the pitch, then how exactly can we be considered a "middle tier nation"? The Premier League is by the far the hardest competition in club football, with the highest overall standards. It is also the most watched and followed league, exposing our players to consistent high profile games and the highest forms of pressure.

The only real difference is, we dont have a world beating midfielder, but in terms of overall quality we should match up very well to even the better teams. A lot of these squads about at the top have a few world class players, mixed with some very under par..... generally we are a team with no massive stars, but with a team solidly built on Champions League quality.

So I refute that we are a middle nation.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:51 pm

alfie wrote:Not saying Southgates tactics were all right - a lot of opinion comes into that judgement - but given the players he had at his disposal I'd suggest he has been right a lot more than the other. And to suggest he is tactically clueless and should be shown the door strikes me as just the sort of foolishness that has held English football back for years


Put this argument into footballing context. He picked a squad with none of the potential passing midfielders at his disposal included, then when he finds himself 1-0 up but unable to stop the Croatians playing, he goes a whole half being dominated while Dier, Delph, Loftus-Cheek and Phil Jones (who can play there) sat on the bench. We just threw the ball up to a striker who is tiny, and gave him no support for the second ball. So the plan was essentially just to lose the ball.

When he did make a change, he put a direct running forward on with very little aerial ability, and continued. Rashford was relegated to chasing shadows. When we went 2-1 down he brought on Vardy, the biggest counter attacking threat we have, but who plays off the shoulder of the last man exclusively, and is not any use when a team goes back and plays a compact 2 bank of 4 style football. Obviously Southgate never watched Leicester win the league when Vardy was a menace playing the exact type of bloody football we were when 1-0 up. Nor has he ever watched Rashford, because I dont think I have ever seen him played as a target man.

He asked Alli, a creative 10, to do nothing but track the advancing right back and at the same time cover Modric.... he ended in no mans land knackered doing neither. Lingard similarly had to cover Rakitic and Strinic, the same. Meanwhile our full backs were 30 yards away standing still, marking wingers while the Croatian full backs danced in acres of space on the byline throwing balls into the box. Sterling did well, and was replaced. Kane did nothing, and stayed on. All the changes he made were wrong, ill thought out, and made no sense. It was like he was watching a different game, unable to read or respond to the moment. What type of manager watches his team get utterly dominated but 1-0, and keeps two strikers up top? Especially when his team are dropping deeper and deeper.

It leaves two conclusions. He either has no understanding of tactics and how his own players fit inside them.... or he frankly lost his mind and his balls. Neither lead to a conclusion that he is right for the future of English football.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby Alviro Patterson » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:02 pm

GG - Amir Sohail wrote:Sterling, Vardy and Kane must have scored about 70 premier league goals between them last season, yet England can barely muster shots on target against Colombia, Sweden and Croatia.

Southgate got his tactics all wrong. But it was good to see England win a shootout and he at least seems to have instilled a better mentality and culture round the national team. Perhaps he needs a more tactically aware assistant manager or something. Subbing Sterling rather than Alli yesterday was a mad decision. The latter looked absolutely gassed and failed to close down the right back and Modric on numerous occasions.


2nd half was screaming for Loftus-Cheek to come on, just for someone to bridge the middle. Rashford coming on for Sterling killed off the main attacking outlet, the former was playing ridiculously deep. It just seemed Southgate was content on preserving that one goal lead in the 2nd half, where other teams in the World Cup have killed games off by looking for a 2 goal cushion.

Thinking about it now the England players have run through brick walls in getting to the Semi-Final, perhaps it was one match too many. I'd imagine a potential final against France would be as one sided as the 2013 League Cup Final.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby st_brendy » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:31 pm

I've got little doubt that with a better manager, we would have won yesterday.

Yesterday was largely just a repeat of our entire tournament. A huge, huge drop-off in performance after HT (even against Tunisia and Panama that was case, as well as all three KO games). Kane turning into some sort of deep-lying Michael Carrick character. And lousy substitutions, both in terms of timing and personnel (and that includes players who weren't involved in the subs, not just those who were).

(And if anyone says that we lacked options on the bench, well that is what you get when you pick squad players who are never going to play, and are just worse versions of what is already on the pitch. But hey, I've been banging that drum for 20 years now, with no success. If someone wants to explain to me when we were ever going to use Jones or Welbeck, in a meaningful match, then I'm all ears.)
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:57 pm

certainly there were far too many long balls after half time, which delivered nothing, but I put that down to Croatia ramping up the pressure. The Croatian manager must have spotted a weakness down England's right because after half time they concentrated almost entirely on that side. Poor old Walker was put under immense pressure... too much pressure in the end. In hindsight taking off Alli (I agree about Sterling being taken off too soon) and bringing on someone like Dier earlier to bolster the right, might have helped to preserve the 1-0 lead.

The team does seem to have regularly run out of steam in the second half, but as the team plays the system more, and they become more experienced internationally, that will hopefully improve

For all the talk of Modric, he didn't impress me much. I felt that Perisic and Vrsaljko were the players most instrumental in turning that game around
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:34 pm

I agree with this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44804874

It felt that way to me too, as I said before the game
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby Gingerfinch » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:50 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:I agree with this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44804874

It felt that way to me too, as I said before the game


Luka is dead right.

I was listening to Talksport for most of the day, and most of the presenters and guests were predicting a comfortable win.

I have to admit, we were pretty poor from 30 minutes onwards. Too much negativity and faffing around at the back. The subs didn't really change that either. Still, we amazingly got to the semi final, which was a stage further than I had hoped. It may have been only Sweden, and Columbia, but it was also Iceland and Costa Rica.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:57 pm

Maybe a knighthood for Gareth and SPOTY this winter.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:24 pm

ooh... coach of the year? is that one a public vote?

Is there likely to be any competition from any other sport?

you may be right.... that'll please SP no end.... I can hear the safety valve fizzing from here
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby budgetmeansbudget » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:53 am

The guy got the nation and the team going for a bit so Southgate does deserve some praise.

Same as Bobby Robson and Terry Venables did back in the day.

At the end of it all we will never get a manager or the players who are ever seriously going to challenge.

A quality premier league is what the fans want not a quality national team, and the fact that no European club will hardly ever sign an Englishman says it all really.

Bournemouth getting promotion to the Premier League meant alot more to me than England ever winning anything.
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Re: FIFA World Cup 2018 chat thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:07 pm

budgetmeansbudget wrote:The guy got the nation and the team going for a bit so Southgate does deserve some praise.


he does indeed. The players believe in him, which is something Capello couldn't manage. Probably only Robson and Venables have been able to take the players with them (maybe Sven, maybe not), so this is a good starting point.
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