New Women's football thread (inc World Cup) 2023-26

[Durhamfootman]

I don’t know all the ins and outs of the player revolt, but clearly all was/is not well with the whole set up around the Spanish women’s team. It’s really rather remarkable that with all this stuff going on behind the scenes they were able to go on and win a World Cup. I reckon, with all the public, media and political discontent on show, that the decision has been taken to find the broadest brush with which to sweep Spanish football clean.

[bigfluffylemon]

Rubiales finally sees the writing on the wall and resigns.

It's been clear to everyone else for weeks this would happen, not sure how he thought he could keep his position.

Don't let the door hit you, etc.

[Durhamfootman]

he says it was the 'intelligent' thing to do, so presumably the fact that he waited so long says much about his intelligence

apparently, and I've just been reading this, one of the many things that sparked 'the 15' revolt against Vilda, was that the players were not allowed to lock their bedroom doors until midnight while on international duty. That was so that Vilda himself could check they were in bed and not out clubbing and once he'd shut the door they were allowed to lock it. Astonishing!

https://www.mundodeportivo.com/futbol/f ... vilda.html

[sussexpob]

apparently, and I've just been reading this, one of the many things that sparked 'the 15' revolt against Vilda, was that the players were not allowed to lock their bedroom doors until midnight while on international duty. That was so that Vilda himself could check they were in bed and not out clubbing and once he'd shut the door they were allowed to lock it. Astonishing!

None of that is remotely uncommon though. Things like player curfews and checking on players adhering to them are standard, and nowadays all teams stay together before home games so that the whereabouts of players can be monitored and controlled. In the NFL its actually mandatory for players to stay in a hotel before all games. I have read players say that this takes the form of a coach coming at "lights out " time to check you are where you should be, and then you can lock the door. But before that it needs to be unlocked (not that it means someone walks in, but its somewhat symbolic - the idea is, if the door is unlocked, the player must answer if someone comes). My favourite story on this I read was in the MLB, where I think it was the Mets coach used to give a baseball and marker pen to every hotel staff member when the team arrived, and put people strategically guarding hotel exits - if a player went to leave the hotel, they would ask for a baseball to be signed, and then the manager had signed for proof a player had broken curfew.

Either way, if this is the smoking gun against Vilda, a policy that ended 4 years before the players spoke out, and at a time many of them were not in the national team, seems an incredibly weak primary reason to use against him.

I think you can see the lack of understanding in the article when it mentions Spain still do this for junior teams - I think all the guidelines on coaching conduct with minors would strictly recommend this sort of thing. Its not abnormal, its a legal and professional necessity.

[Durhamfootman]

again.... it's just another example of the general culture of control that has persisted and alienated the players for years and years. Other than the sacking of the first coach, and he was in post for 27 years until Vilda arrived despite long standing player discontent with pretty much everything about him, my guess is that the players perhaps feel that they've never really been listened to. From what I can gather, many of their grievances with Vilda were carbon copies of the grievances they held with the previous regime, so it's hardly a harmonious environment and easy to understand why they feel the way they do. At least now the players may dare to hope for some changes

[sussexpob]

It seems that the narrative about the team invites me to believe that Vilda was tactically inept, incapable, overseen a chaotic off-field situation in all forms, alienated all his best players to the point they refused to play, and everything about this falls on his shoulders..... yet, somehow, Spain just won the WC, the biggest prize in female sport.

This leads us to only two possible conclusions.

1. The role of manager, even if manifested in the most toxic form of self-destructiveness, means absolutely nothing in sport.

2. They are all bullsh*t

I think in regards to the former conclusion, it goes without saying that coaching and management in teams sports is necessary because...er... every team adopts the model.

[sussexpob]

Its funny, because Vilda even had a documentary made about his revolutionary view on female football development. The idea, put simply, was that he prioritised selecting players who had high level of skill over physicality and fitness, because he thought he could teach that with discipline and increased professionalism, but skill was much harder to teach. This flagship model has been promoted as a standard blueprint for woman's football's rapid improvement in Spain.... yet, he stupid? Yet, he's too strict?

I would suggest that those players who have a problem with him might forget that its not that long ago woman's football was terrible, unprofessional and unwatchable. Do you improve standards so rapidly without discipline or huge effort? It occurs to me that some of these players grew up in different realities, and that reality hit them in the form of people like Vilda - to be the best, you have to work harder. Its not amateur anymore. That is the standard required. I cant help but feel this whole thing is a previously amateur player base meeting a sudden increase in expectations and dedication. The players didn't like it, but its not the world they grew up in.... maybe 10 years ago you could get a game at the top of woman's football not being that dedicated. Now, no chance. Don't like it? Tough....

Spain just won the world cup.... maybe there needs to be some acknowledgement that the methods Vilda used for the last few years 100% worked. Indulging in this idea that he was inept or that demanding standards, discipline and accountability from his players was negative....

Result speak the loudest.

[Durhamfootman]

or perhaps the players just wanted to win despite everything

or maybe the thought crossed their minds that winning the WC would give them the platform to effect change and that motivated them

or maybe they just wanted to win and then afterwards saw the opportunity to use it to effect change

could be all sorts of reasons, but regardless, it was a remarkable achievement, with or without the circumstances they found themselves in

[sussexpob]

Dare I say DFM, you are forgetting that only 3 of the players returned, so the team that won the WC was a majority of players who did not express any issues previously. Those that did largely chose to continue refusing to play, rather than win. It was reported Vilda approached all 16 players (the 15 who sent the letter + injured player who just Instagrammed her support as she was not in the squad) in March to select them, and only 3 ended up accepting... although a couple of players claim they did not get contacted, its clear a large number of the group were selected and still refused.

It adds further weight to my point.... We have two tournaments with 12 months of each other, one with a core of players who moaned and blamed the coach, another that did not.

One won the world cup
One flopped
The coach was a constant in both

It would appear that the results show that maybe the players were the toxicity holding the team back?

Certainly on a sporting level, it seems bizarre that a team would campaign now to change the methods of a coach who won the world cup? Nothing proves your point about a person having disastrous working methods than winning the biggest prize in your profession.

It would be like trying to argue someone was a terrible scientist by testing out their zaney theories, and winning them a nobel prize.

[Durhamfootman]

well, Spain have a chance now to change anything and everything about their international set up, from the players to the executive and everything in between. Personnel, structure, culture, the lot, so lets see what they can do with it.

[sussexpob]

well, Spain have a chance now to change anything and everything about their international set up, from the players to the executive and everything in between. Personnel, structure, culture, the lot, so lets see what they can do with it.

That is something that is very much easier said than done, especially in Spain. Having some form of unified team approach or culture, when in reality you have three different ethnic groups that make up the team (Basque, Catalan + Castellan) is not easy. Something as simple as what language you communicate in can be a valid question - if you have a majority of Catalans (which the team did before the player revolt), most people aren't going to like that. Catalan's speak Spanish, and will speak it to foreigners happily knowing they are making an effort, but someone from Madrid who turns up in Barcelona isn't going to be welcomed so much taking Castellan Spanish.

Spain is a special case, because football clubs really do divide the lines between sport, culture and politics - Bilbao, Barcelona... these aren't only football clubs, but banners of cultural pride. And that transfers to unique football styles too. Bilbao's Cantera teaches vertical passing, Barcelona tiki-taka and individuality, Madrid has always valued physicality and team ethic... and these values are taught to kids as early as they kick a ball. Its a time old problem for Spain to find something that blends this together, and many coaches have failed. Of course, its easy to say in the period 15 odd years ago Spain had a unique talent boom, but all through my life they have had elite quality sides, but failed to expectations.

On of the things often credited with Spain's world success was the fact Puyol and Casillas got along, which in the history of Barcelona and Madrid, never occurred before or after. Both of these players worked together to foster a unified understanding, and at the start to paint the situation, would be the only two players from the different clubs to communicate to each other, then pass on the information to the others. Over many years, they pushed the two warring factions together to the point they could talk and work together - but again as an example of how fragile that is, Casillas and Puyol recently tried to mitigate between the sides after a few wild El Clasico games got out of hand, and the Barcelona coach Xavi came out to tell the two of them he had no intention of talking to a Madrid scumbag to settle anything.

It wasnt that long ago players like Pique were openly threatening to quit the Spanish team after the Catalan parliament declarations.... and he wasn't alone. A lot of Barcelona players don't have much allegiance to Spain, and don't enjoy playing for them.

[sussexpob]

In fact, its one point that is not really noted at all in the Vilda situation - 13 of the players who revolted had links to Catalunya or the Basque region (I think 12 by birth and club association, 1 player was Castellan but brought up in Barcelona and was de facto Catalan).... and then interestingly, out of the revolting players who broke their stance and came back, 2 out of the 3 were non-Catalan/Basque, so pretty much all the players who missed the World Cup were from non-Castellan extraction.

Vilda is from Madrid..... he is Castellan. Brought up in the Madrid academy......

When a largely Basque-Catalan unit of players come out to question your tactics or methods, its worth remembering that is not only a footballing question, but a cultural one - different academies, different footballing culture. A Barcelona player taught in the art of tiki-taka at La Mesia has been brought up to play a very particular, historic type of football.... to them, playing any other way is totally alien. To prepare, to train, etc in a different way.... all alien. So for them to fault a coach who was brought up at their biggest rivals academy, in a different culture, and a different style of football..... its hardly evidence of anything, is it? Spanish academies drill you in the tactics and approach of your team from 6 years old to 36.... its a uniform approach, all encompassing. You join as a kid and go to their boarding schools, and even your general education, ethics, morality.... its all tied to the culture of the club. To play only at Barcelona all your life, then be confronted with something else, would be like trying to teach another religion to a devout follower.

In the end, the weirdest thing is, Spain had a coach that managed to ride all this ethnic divide at a time in Spanish domestic politics where fault lines have really been fractured. This is a really toxic, strong question in Spain after the arrested of Catalan government officials...... to keep a team together is not easy. There had to be some form of positive culture in place to have found success in such a situation.

Its easy to see this as Vilda v a few players....

In reality its Madrid v Barcelona, Catalan v Castellan, La Mesia v Cantera v La Fabrica, Tiki Taka v Direct Vertical....etc, etc.

Find someone to win or find compromise on all those variables, and without the appearance of chaos or unrest..... super difficult. The men have spent the best part of 100 years trying it, and have been successful for a very short period in doing it.

[Durhamfootman]

it was a pretty good game on Friday night, between England and Scotland. Scotland are the sort of team that England should be battering into next week and for a long time it looked as though they would. There was a goal bizzarely ruled out for offside (interfering with the keeper.... which looked like a bonkers call to me) two cracking headers (one of which might have just been offside.... mms in it) and a goal ruled out for offside that might not have been after all.... no VAR in this match. Scotland somehow wriggled one in against the run of play in first half stoppage time.

Second half, Scotland had a right old go, especially for the last 30 mins. They peppered the England goal, Earps had to make several saves, some of them sharp ones, Hanson hit the bar with a volley and I think there was a goal line clearance in there somewhere as well. The gap in quality didn't look that great in that last period of play.

England will have been a bit relieved to come away with all 3 points. England only made one substitution, Toone for Kelly, so it felt as though they were happy to try and defend the 2-1 lead rather than make some changes and try to create more chances for themselves. NL lost to Belgium, so that helps as well. Olympic qualification is up for grabs in this tournament. If GB make it through (England are the nominated team) then SW has said she'll coach the side

[Durhamfootman]

Frustrating first half performance from England. Nothing winds me up more than England teams constantly looking for the backward pass instead of moving the ball forward. The dutch have moved the ball well, have looked a constant threat, which England have tried to negate by slowing the game down and defending resolutely. All that means nothing, though, if you unnecessarily give the ball away in front of the box and have to watch the ball being curled into the top corner

At least it woke England up a bit. Daly hit the post and the dutch keeper had to make a fine pair of saves, but part of England's problem in this game is they are being over-run in midfield and can't go forward with any sort of control. Forward passes get rushed and end up being slightly behind the intended targets, who then have to lay the ball back instead of attacking and before you know where you are the ball is back with Earps.

It feels as though England need to do more than change a couple of players. It rather feels as though they need to switch to a back 4 and get another body in the midfield, because the dutch are doing a lot of damage in that part of the pitch and they're running England a bit ragged. Ah well.... in Sarina we trust

[Durhamfootman]

They have gone to a back four. Daly off and Kelly on