Random footie

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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:38 am

Its hard to know what to do with it. While I do think UEFA recent standpoint in telling refs to be more inclined to call a match off is the way to go, I do wonder at what point that becomes a thing, teams could exploit it as a tactic. It wouldnt be hard to put a few away fans in the home end to start chants and get games ended. It seems like to easy a thing to do. So I dont really know what should be done, aside from throw the book at teams where its clear there is a constant problem.

No one wants to see black or minority players have to go through this. Its 2019 for christ sake.
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Re: Random footie

Postby Durhamfootman » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:44 am

There seems to be momentum building towards a team being taken off by their manager sometime in the near future because of racist chanting. Whilst such action may shine a light very forcefully on the hopeless response over the years by the various football governing bodies, I do fear that this might actually act as a perverse incentive to some of the more unsavoury of fans........ particularly if their side happens to be 3-0 down at the time

although perhaps I don't give fans enough credit
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Re: Random footie

Postby Durhamfootman » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:45 am

similar thoughts by the looks of it, SP
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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:00 am

Durhamfootman wrote:similar thoughts by the looks of it, SP


Indeed. Lot of money in the game, lot at stake. If such things as crowd chants can change the destiny of points/titles, then I have no doubt teams would exploit it to try to manufacture it to their advantage. I think the idea that football is anything but a "result by any means necessary" business is a little naive. If they were to implement such a system, they would really need to think long and hard about it. Its not hard to buy tickets to a game. It could be your first match ever, you turn up, you say something racist, you cost a billion pound entity a title. Or you could offer it as a service to clubs... "give me 300,000, Ill sit in the home end and make monkey noises".....

Its too easy to do it. What is also very easy is making sure each team has adequate CCTV on their fans, and that in the event of any chanting or what not, you isolate who it is, and that person never gets to go to a football game again in a UEFA country.
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Re: Random footie

Postby yuppie » Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:30 am

Cagliari have also racially abused Blaise Matuidi. I think it was also Cagliari that abused Eto and Sulley Muntari in the last few years?

A player can act like a pratt and be called out for it. But when the abuse becomes racial or homophobic then there is a problem.

And Italian football does have a racism problem. Im not sure point deductions will work, and the fines are pitiful. But maybe make them play behind close doors for half a season and do not televise their games. Cut of the income for the club, especially clubs that have a serious history of this. But UEFA and many leagues around the world do little to nothing about this. Some small fines, the odd game with out spectators. Its not enough.
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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:47 am

Indeed, you highlight an important aspect of the debate; that being, we can do more than we do now, and that when situations are easy to judge, the punishments need to act as a deterrent and send a clear message that the culture of football will not accept this behaviour in any form. Sadly, I think this is a reason why Italian football has so many problems. Historically, they have just not done enough about it, and I think that largely stems from the power of some ultra groups there, and how politically motivated some are.

I remember about 20 years back, when Italy first picked the very talented Fabio Liverani (I think he was half Somalian, and Italy's first BAME player) that he took some incredible stick from opposition fans. Lazio at the time were given a stadium ban of one match for a frankly disgusting display of flagrant, widespread racism in a Roma derby game (which I think even involved Ultra Groups physically targeting and attacking a Roma Brazilian black player, cant remember his name, at a restaurant), but they were allowed to sell tickets to their fans and use another stadium, so the punishment amounted to nothing. The following year, they bought Liverani, and he was welcomed by signs saying "Your place is not here; its in the gas chambers of Auschwitz". The Lazio ultras regularly used to graffiti the training ground walls at their displeasure of signing a black player. Not only did these events go unpunished, but Liverani scored a goal against a smaller club around this time, in a game he'd been abused for 90 minutes, and he then made a gesture of his hand to his ear to the home fans; think he was banned and was forced into a grovelling apology to some Neo-Nazis, while the fans conduct was dismissed as "normal". Imagine having to do that!!

It goes back a while and might seem irrelevant, but these issues in the early 2000s/late 90s stem from general populism in politics of Italy, reacting to the first wave of immigration from non-white countries that appeared in the country around this time. Sadly, the inaction of those days has lead to a normalcy of this type of behaviour in certain sections of crowds, and it remains unchecked and allowed to manifest itself.

Its about time UEFA stepped in and started to take European places away everytime an issue like this happens, and nothing is done about it. If the situation is more nuanced, then fine; we approach that when it comes, but if you have a camera and can identify faces in the crowd who are nazi saluting, or holding bananas, or throwing bananas, or monkey chanting.... then ban these people from stadiums for all their life. Once you start to do this, people will stop doing it as much. If you dont do anything, why would they stop?

Two examples spring to mind here; I remember Balotelli crying on the bench after being subjected to horrendous chants in a Milan derby vs Inter; the tv footage from at the base of the stand showed clearly who was doing it, who was holding inflatable bananas. They werent removed from the stand. They werent banned. Cagliari fans too apparently are regularly shopped in by their fellow fans to the Italian FA for being racist; the fans are then not punished. The second example is Eto'o..... I still remember the footage again of clear, identifiable faces in the crowd holding their hands up in a Nazi Salute.

The Spanish FA did actually identify these people; I think they all got stadium bans..... for a handful of games :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

We need to do more. No players should be subject to this nonsense. We need to stand with them and make sure the minority elements are not allowed to continue to spoil the game for anyone else.
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Re: Random footie

Postby yuppie » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:38 am

Watching Forest at present has become a chore. SO many things wrong with the club. Time for Martin and Roy to leave and head into retirement.

This is worse football then when we had Gary Megson in charge. Tony Pulis and Neil Warnock would be proud.
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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:46 am

The Belgian FA's investigation into corruption and match fixing has been concluded today, and they have found Mechelen and Waasland Beveren guilty of throwing a match at the end of the 17-18 season. Under their footballing jurisdiction, they have instantly relegated both clubs for next year, and imposed a 12 point deduction to start the season next year. Due to the severity of the punishment, both teams have exercised their legal right to have the case heard in the court of appeal by a proper judge, and the court case will start 30th April. Along with the club, 13 members of the respective board face corruption charges in legal courts, to be taken up by prosecutors asap.

While both clubs look bang to rights, and anyone who has read my previous opinion on the issues will know its been blatantly obvious even this year that Mechelen have paid off refs (some decisions have been unfathomable), both clubs claim legal precedents for corruption from a case in 1982 means it is the individuals, not the club, in law that take responsibility. This case however concerns Standard Liege players paying their opponents players to throw a game, so its hardly the same as Chairmen of the board routinely doing it. While I am delighted these corrupt Malinois will get their come due reward having had to endure 5 matches against them this year which were a blot on the nature of fair competition, there will be no win for Union, who are the main sufferer of this whole action.

For reasons that only the Belgian FA seem to understand, despite being disqualified from the league this year and their results nullified/promotion quashed, the new winners of the stage 1 of the D1B, Union, will not go up. Instead that right will go to Beerschot, with the relegation of Waasland Beveren leading to one less team from the Premier League coming down. Beerschot get promoted for winning stage 2, of equal relevance to stage 1. How the hell does this make sense? The action by the board gives Union and Beerschot equal claim to take Mechelens place (winners of both), and if both stages are combined, Union beat Beerschot points total. And this is before we get to the cup semi final. Mechelen play the cup final at the weekend, one day before their appeal starts, so cannot be barred yet from competing. Their eventual legal disqualification would mean Union should have progressed to play that match, the fact the court cant meet in time has robbed us off a cup final.

So all in all, to sum up this season for Union.....

They have won division D2B, but will not get promoted despite that being the rules.

They will not play a cup final despite being knocked out in the semi by a team that has been subsequently disqualified. The disqualified team will instead take their place and be instantly stripped of the trophy if they win it, leading to the final being a pointless match.

They are almost certain to win the Europa League playoff now, but have been refused a licence by the Belgian FA to compete in the competition. Even if Union finish second in the playoffs (they are 9 points clear of 3rd with 4 matches to play) the subsequent play of would be against the finalist of the cup, who as a result of Mechelen's disqualification, have already qualified meaning the spot would go to Union anyway.

An absolute disgrace, I have to say. Such a great season for the club, we deserve at least one shot at promotion, Europe or a trophy. These b*stards in the Belgian FA are doing everything to screw us.
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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:58 am

In fact, despite loving going to see my adopted team here at the weekend, this whole issue makes me feel like I cant be bothered with Belgian football as a fan. Its quite clearly a very corrupted and damaged system. It turned out in the end Union wont be going to the Europa Cup when/small if they dont win the playoff, not because as previous believed the stadium was in order (turns out the subsequent work meeting standard BEFORE the date of the first match would be enough to overturn the application rejection based on the incomplete work)...... no, after refusing it for the stadium, only for Union to point out they could successfully appeal it, the Belgian FA found something else, and said that the clubs youth setup didnt meet their own (NOT UEFAs guideline) criteria for awarding a European Licence.

This weekend the U-11 team thrashed Sevilla and Valencia's youth teams in a European schoolboys cup competion. Sounds like the youth setup is terrible, doesnt it? In fact, as of next year the youth setup, which has been heavily invested in recently, will be competing at the highest domestic level, with links being made to Premier League and La Liga clubs.

Bottom line? Anderlecht, Belgiums biggest club, failed to make the Europa League after an abhorrent season. Being once place away from qualification, who gets the extra place? You guess it... Anderlecht.

Could you imagine if Burton Albion won the FA Cup, and their place in the Europa League was given to Manchester United on the basis that the FA decided Burton's under 12 team wasnt good enough for them to represent England abroad? I think angry football fans all over the country would burn the FA Headquarters to the ground. It would rightfully be a disgrace.
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Re: Random footie

Postby yuppie » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:04 am

You know my views on Anderlecht, and from what you are writing it seems the Belgium footy has not moved on since the early 80's
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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:08 pm

yuppie wrote:You know my views on Anderlecht, and from what you are writing it seems the Belgium footy has not moved on since the early 80's


I think Belgium is one of those weird places where grassroots football is very well funded, especially in Flanders where the regional government throw all their budget for recreation at youth football; yet these players filter into football clubs that are struggling to exist in the context of modern day football. Half the first division is teams from towns no bigger than a British decent sized village. One town of 20,000 has two Premier League clubs (Zulte and Waasland)..... these clubs cant sustain grounds that conform to modern day standards, pay a squad of 25 people to compete against Champions League teams, and keep prices low enough to attract the locals all at once. The best players nowadays get picked up before they are worth anything, or filter off to the best academies at Anderlecht.

So you get a weird situation where the division is pretty equal in terms of player quality, but the financial situations are ridiculously different. Two of the four clubs (ie the ones throwing the game to lose) indicated in this fixing scam were clubs that are in massive financial strain. Mouscron are days away from being wound up. Waasland will do well to survive a relegation and points deduction, they are eyeballs in debt. But for these clubs struggling away, why would you not throw a game? If someone offers to pay your wage bill or that months debt bill to lose a meaningless end of season game, when you are already safe? Of course you will do it.

The administrators and FA also seem to be struggling to convert from irrelevant national body, to leaders of a system that made a World Cup 3rd place. You just get the feeling its all a very amateur operation for the most part. You cant blame those involved, they just dont have the resources or known how to do better.
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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:22 pm

But yeah, I dont think it has moved on. The general opinion across the country seems to be that this is an opportunity for the Belgian FA to step up and clear the skeleton from the closet, but no one is holding out much hope. Most people seem to think openly in the press that the FA have made a hash job of the case being sent to court, and that this might not exactly be much of an accident. So Mechelen will walk free, the FA will claim they tried, some money will end in bank accounts, and the only people that will lose will be the fans..... And those smaller clubs.... because its them that struggle to fill grounds, not Anderlecht with 7 million fans.

As an example of what the press are saying about FA idiotic incompetence..... Mechelens whole defence seems to be based on a rule of the FA where punishment can only be made before a licence is granted for the following season.

The FA granted Mechelen a licence a few days ago, then pretty much straightaway, sent their dossier to the court to charge them. Worth noting the issuing of the licence by the FA was earlier than is usual (Mechelen's season is over, but most teams still have 3-4 games left in other divisions), and the fact they got a licence while a investigation was uncovering deep problems, and not delayed until the outcome of the court case, is a matter that has everyone shaking heads.

Seems one of those too convenient to be accidental type deals.
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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:17 pm

Ha, since I posted that, apparently Anderlecht's training ground, stadium and the Belgian FA headquarters in Laeken have all been raided by police.

The noose is tightening!
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Re: Random footie

Postby yuppie » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:48 pm

excellent
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Re: Random footie

Postby sussexpob » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:40 pm

Belgian news saying the Mechelen investigation, which found and charged a football agent who subsequently has squealed to save his skin, is believed to have leaked info about Anderlecht money laundering and match fixing too.

Also, it's being said that the transfer of Mitrovic to Newcastle is central to the case, with his agents office in Brussels also being raided. Being said the deal is dodgy, but no word on Newcastle, just the Anderlecht involvement
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