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[Durhamfootman]

although they probably have a better batting coach than their Durham counterparts

[captaincolly]

although they probably have a better batting coach than their Durham counterparts

Almost certainly!

[Aidan11]

Sunderland will never get out of the doldrums unless they appoint a lead high performance coach!

I must admit I was surprised by Ross' appointment considering his last trip to the North East.

He signed for us, played a few games, got injured, went back to his home in Scotland and refused to come back. Normally I could understand that but we were in the midst of our golden period culminating with the league 1 play off final which we were eight minutes away from winning had the bent ref not given Sheffield Wednesday a penalty for no reason at all.

He did better than expected to be fair but I think even the Sunderland supporters generally feel a change is needed to get back in the Championship.

[captaincolly]

Sunderland will never get out of the doldrums unless they appoint a lead high performance coach!

I must admit I was surprised by Ross' appointment considering his last trip to the North East.

He signed for us, played a few games, got injured, went back to his home in Scotland and refused to come back. Normally I could understand that but we were in the midst of our golden period culminating with the league 1 play off final which we were eight minutes away from winning had the bent ref not given Sheffield Wednesday a penalty for no reason at all.

He did better than expected to be fair but I think even the Sunderland supporters generally feel a change is needed to get back in the Championship.

I don't know much about football but it seems amazing to me that a club with Sunderland's support base and profile ended up in this division in the first place. Don't think they had a financial meltdown ? Just seemed to linger as a mediocre Premiere League team constantly just avoiding relegation and then went into free fall!

[Durhamfootman]

I have a feeling they had to get promoted this season, because the parachute money runs out, or something, and this will impact heavily on next season. Although I confess I don't really understand how the money works. As I understand it, they had far more money available than other teams in the division, so they should really have secured an automatic berth. They were well on course to do so until they got distracted by the Wembley cup final.

[captaincolly]

I have a feeling they had to get promoted this season, because the parachute money runs out, or something, and this will impact heavily on next season. Although I confess I don't really understand how the money works. As I understand it, they had far more money available than other teams in the division, so they should really have secured an automatic berth. They were well on course to do so until they got distracted by the Wembley cup final.

Yes, think this ties in with what a ( Newcastle fan) who runs the pub quiz at my local told me a while back - I didn't quite understand what he was saying but the gist of it was that failure to gain promotion would have massive financial consequences.

[sussexpob]

Watched with interest at this Jonny Williams fella, that lower league club supporters rave about, when he came on as sub with 20 mins to go. Reminded me of a poor man's Neymar..... takes the ball on mazy runs down dead ends until he feels a touch of some sort and then rolls all the floor holding his knee a lot was my assessment.

In my mind the boy would be playing Premier League football if he'd stayed fit, and when he first broke in it looked like he could be a player with the potential to play towards the top end of that league. The first thing he did yesterday was take the ball into space beating a man, whipped in a lovely ball, striker should hit the target. Second time he gets fouled on the edge of the box. The winning goal came from the same thing. He was a hassle. If hes fit, he's way above this level of football, its not even close.

I dont think I noticed him dive, he's 5ft 5in and tbf to him, if you watch how teams at this level treat him, hes got every right to go down because he's physically obliterated regularly; that diminutive touch for a small guy with a low centre of gravity often ends with him being hacked. He's had his leg shattered, his collar bone broken, several other injuries. Sadly they have come to define him, and donkey lower league defenders often get frustrated and go in hard on him.

Watch the Sunderland doco from last year (mentioned on this thread last week).....to his credit, he comes across very well in it.

[sussexpob]

I have a feeling they had to get promoted this season, because the parachute money runs out, or something, and this will impact heavily on next season. Although I confess I don't really understand how the money works..

Yes, think this ties in with what a ( Newcastle fan) who runs the pub quiz at my local told me a while back - I didn't quite understand what he was saying but the gist of it was that failure to gain promotion would have massive financial consequences.

In short, I dont think its true. The solidarity payment and TV money Championship teams get as opposed to their League One counterparts equates to about 4 million a year extra, and any increased revenue being in a better league (hospitality, events, fan revenue, ticket sales etc), but if you compare Sheffield United who have had back to back promotions recently, they only cut about £6 million extra between divisions; which sounds a lot, but in Sunderland's case as a lot of their financial obligations are linked to what division they are in (through relegation clauses/promotion clauses in their wage contracts), the CEO stated last week that essentially their wage bill would swallow whatever revenue they gained from being in the Championship as soon as they were promoted, leaving actually no forecast financial benefit for going up (unless, in the unlikely scenario, they had a wonder season and got the stadium near to full, which hasnt been the case in a long time).

Parachute payments will bite, but they have not totally disappeared. They will lose about 15-20 million off what they got last year, but they will still get around 15 million for one final year. It would only really make a difference this year on the basis that they can no longer get that money next year, because they cant be promoted to the premier league. So after the next year, they will lose all form of parachute payments, and will have to find a huge hole to fill, as they will this year.

But I dont honestly know how this translates to their financial health. Ellis Short's agreement to sell up came with him clearing the debt, but they still had player transfer installments in some cases of near 10 million to pay, for instance in Ndong's case. So while at the start of this year, they were debt free, they were always going to have to absorb huge outgoings in the near future. And obviously go further into debt because the cost balancing measures will take a long time to knit into the club.

So where do they stand now? My guess is unhealthy situation, but not disasterous, because they have a lot of debt they can build up in the near future because they started from zero. But they really need to cut costs drastically in the medium to long term.... or get themselves promoted twice.

[Durhamfootman]

That sounds right, SP. So basically they need to sell their players this year in order to cut their costs for the next year when the money runs out? Even promotion next year doesn't seem to help them because the money they lose will not be compensated for by promotion.... only promotion to the PL would do that.

I guess this is how clubs slide down the leagues. Back to back relegations pretty much killed them and this was their biggest chance to turn things around

[Durhamfootman]

Watched with interest at this Jonny Williams fella, that lower league club supporters rave about, when he came on as sub with 20 mins to go. Reminded me of a poor man's Neymar..... takes the ball on mazy runs down dead ends until he feels a touch of some sort and then rolls all the floor holding his knee a lot was my assessment.

In my mind the boy would be playing Premier League football if he'd stayed fit, and when he first broke in it looked like he could be a player with the potential to play towards the top end of that league. The first thing he did yesterday was take the ball into space beating a man, whipped in a lovely ball, striker should hit the target. Second time he gets fouled on the edge of the box. The winning goal came from the same thing. He was a hassle. If hes fit, he's way above this level of football, its not even close.

I dont think I noticed him dive, he's 5ft 5in and tbf to him, if you watch how teams at this level treat him, hes got every right to go down because he's physically obliterated regularly; that diminutive touch for a small guy with a low centre of gravity often ends with him being hacked. He's had his leg shattered, his collar bone broken, several other injuries. Sadly they have come to define him, and donkey lower league defenders often get frustrated and go in hard on him.

Watch the Sunderland doco from last year (mentioned on this thread last week).....to his credit, he comes across very well in it.

He changed the game for Charlton, I think. Smart move to hold him back and introduce him as the defenders got tired. Sunderland tried the same thing with McGeady (had he been out injured for a bit?), but he was limited to a few shots from outside the box.

[Durhamfootman]

I dont think I noticed him dive

no he didn't dive, but he did tend to go down easy. Given your comments on his injury record, perhaps that's just sensible

[sussexpob]

That sounds right, SP. So basically they need to sell their players this year in order to cut their costs for the next year when the money runs out? Even promotion next year doesn't seem to help them because the money they lose will not be compensated for by promotion.... only promotion to the PL would do that. I guess this is how clubs slide down the leagues. Back to back relegations pretty much killed them and this was their biggest chance to turn things around

They pretty much sold every single player they could at the end of last year, they got rid of £25 odd million quid of players out the door, which itself covered the drop between the 1st and 2nd parachute payments and lose of Championship revenues, and only brought 2 odd million in the other door. The problem is, some players simply cant be sold, and will linger on the wage bill for a while, and while the cleansing of the bad running of the club under Ellis Short takes place, they need time for the cancer to come out of the system. As an example, their wage bill (as stated by their owner last week) was £14 million quid a year. No other League one side tops 3 million apparently. And while you might suggest as above that this means they should storm the league in a rage of fire and fury, in reality its debatable how much of this cash is actually being usefully spent, and how much of it is dead weight paying previous mistakes.

Take Lee Cattermole; hes 26 with his best years ahead of him, gets a massive long deal on decent money committing to the club at a time some people considered him a possible England DM and target for other teams... role on 5 years, hes earning 25 times more than the average divisional wage, hes moving onto 32, he's had a few injuries that have taken his engine away (which is all he really had).... if you are him, do you leave Sunderland on 40,000 grand a week? Of course you dont. His next move is his last, and he'd probably be getting a league one level contract on 2 odd grand. Still, Sunderland have to pay him regardless of his usefulness. Same with Rodwell, Sunderland fans hated him, but they tried to force him out by banishing him from the first team training, but was he ever going to leave a 5 year deal on 70,000k a week? The reality was, his career was all but over, and Burton were the only team to offer him a deal on 1,200k a week..... he was of course never going to move, because he could earn in 2 months more on his current deal that he would ever realistically earn again in his career elsewhere. You cant blame the players. McGeady is 33 and on 31k. Oviedo had that horror leg injury (the horror double leg break) and is never the same player, but he's is on 25k a week. Whatmore is on 20k and has never developed after they signed him to a decent wage. These players cant be sold, they wont earn any money elsewhere, so they refuse to leave. Sunderland still paying Everton nearly 5 million for Oviedo too, so that just adds to it.

In fact, when you look at where that 14 million wage budget is going.... nearly 4 million this year (his contract was terminated, but they still pay him) goes to Rodwell. 1.25 million goes to MArtin Bain who was sacked as CEO. 750,000 goes as compo to the previous CEO who they sacked over the Adam Johnson affair, and who took them to court (6 mill total). They sacked two players last autumn, Ndong (who cost them 13 million, and whom this year they had to pay the last installment on his transfer to his previous club of 8-9 million, even though he wasnt playing for them anymore) and the other CB from Africa I cant remember the name off, but who was also sacked. Both players claimed they were given the summer off to find new clubs to clear the wage bill, the club claim they went AWOL; they both apparently walked away with nearly their full wages of a combined cost of 60k a week. And I think both had to agree as part of their deal that if they were to play again, Sunderland would need 3.5 million compo for each from their new clubs (which was a massive loss on the original deals) but both struggled to find a new club, and I think both ended at a lower league French team who cut a very tiny fee for them. Huge losses.

But add that up.... thats 9 million of their playing budget binned on people who arent even there. And then 1.6 for McGeady, 2 for Cattermole, 1.3 for Oviedo..... your left with essentially nothing. The rest of the squad are base level League One earners in short. So yeah, they are spending loads, but not where it has any effect. Sold 23 million net profit, but thats going to pay on huge transfer losses.

The good thing for them is, the Parachute payments depart, but essentially the whole of their squad contracts and debts owed end in 2020 ..... so while they will lose 15 million, they can also completely rid the last of the leeches on their wage budget by the end of next year. Bain/Rodwell/ex-CEO and some of the transfer deals will be gone this year. So by the end of next year they might be in a bit of bother, but they can at least then start again and build a squad properly, without the shadow of previous failure. Its just a case for Sunderland of damage limitation before that point. If they can stay in good shape, come out the other side competitive and with costs massively reduced, they can build.

If in the next 12 months they go out, spend money on rejects, make a loss on them and come out with huge financial problems, then they are in deep trouble. But the current owner seems to be hellbent on reducing costs, which I think in their situation, is a good thing. He talked about reducing the squad costs to 4 million a year for instance, which in comparative terms gives them the best wage budget in the league, but not the vast gulf of spending that exists now..... and most teams dont have the attendances they can rake in, with the fan base they do. So things should get better.

[Alviro Patterson]

Smart move by Donald Stewart to be financially prudent at Sunderland.

Spending big in League One defeats the objective when all it does is inflate wages across the board. Bolton and Rotherham are hardly going to outspend League One rivals by a huge amount. Although Ipswich might have a decent budget, will their location be at a disadvantage in terms of recruiting players?

Sunderland, Portsmouth and Ipswich are probably the three stand out sides so the Black Cats are good for a top six finish minimum. League One is a naturally competitive division and I would not be surprised if Lincoln win promotion to the Championship next season if the Cowley brothers are not tapped up.

[sussexpob]

I think Sunderland would have to spend the summer trying to sabotage themselves not to be a playoff team next year. As you say, Rotherham I think will be middling quality, and if Bolton even manage to field a team it's a win for them.....them and bury look like they are about to be declared bankrupt, and it's not just being dramatic; it looks like the end for both.

Ipswich might be competitive, but they have an old squad that's fallen apart since Mick left. Didn't invest to replace....still playing Cole skuse upfront when I watched them last year. They need a whole squad gut and a rebuild, they might have a Sunderland type season from this year.

Portsmouth you'd back. Stable team who have proven quality and can add to it. I think they'll win the league

[GGAS]

Ramos wants to leave Madrid for China. Apparently he asked them to leave for free... a request they unsurprisingly declined.

Looks like he is destined to go though. Great defender, embodies by his win at all costs attitude. Bit of a tosser though.