Random footie

[bigfluffylemon]

Hmmm. I was going to say that I, like many Englishmen, have never forgiven him for *that* incident. But as AC rightly points out, one of many cheats. Was it particularly raw because of the recency of the Falklands conflict (and I wonder if the reaction in Argentina was, "sure, it was cheating, but who cares, it allowed us to stick it to the English")? Do Ireland still vilify Thierry Henry after 2009 (perhaps?). Have we forgiven Stuart Broad for blatant failure to walk? It's not the first time and it won't be the last that England has lost a sporting event because of cheating and terrible refereeing - so why is this one still so painful, more than thirty years later?

[sussexpob]

The historian Dan Carlin often says its necessary to "walk a mile in someone's moccasins" before passing any historical judgement on their actions. If we treat everything that occurs in cold, objective reality then we fail to understand the action itself. And if we fail to understand the action, then how can we pass judgement on it? I hear a lot of words like "cheat" being banded around the press (and here) this morning, or people questioning the "flawed" nature of Maradona's character; I wonder if anyone who posts these things has ever tried to walk a mile in Maradona's shoes.

I have never been Maradona, I have never walked a mile in his shoes; but I have walked many miles in his homeland. I have felt the warmth of his countrymen as they mention him, sensed the pride and strength that washes over them as they think about him. Its impossible to have a conversation more than 30 seconds in Argentina without someone mentioning his name, I say that with no exaggeration. I think every single person I have ever spoken to in Argentina not merely in passing asked me about my opinion on him, how he is viewed in my home country, or has spent 5 minutes retelling a moment they remember of his career. A certain goal, a certain pass, a certain dribble where he beats a few men.

In Argentina, his spirit is omnipresent to such an extent that you feel at times like the man is actually walking alongside you, always there, and that his legacy continues to live inside of the hearts of the countries people everyday. When their lives are hard, they think of Maradona. When the country's economy collapsed and their currency became worthless, they think of Maradona. When they are happy and times are good, its compared to when Maradona did this, did that. There exists two Maradona's; the actual man, and a sort of spiritual entity that transcended from that man. That spirit is a source of hope, it softens the sadness of bad times, inspires the poor to better themselves, gives pride in what their culture can achieve.

I have never experienced anything like that to that extent, where a person has almost god like status and evokes such fondness and reverence. Maradona came from humble backgrounds, born into a troublesome time. When Argentina won the world cup in the 70s, there could be no pride in the result; it was too attached to a horrendous regime in the country that murdered and silenced the population. In fact, that victory is completely disregarded in Argentina, to the point they deny its existence. In Argentina, they only won the World Cup once. Its a very significant taboo to even talk or acknowledge that tournament, actually played in Argentina.

You might ask what is the point of this waffling on? Well, its very simple; imagine being the man himself. Imagine having those hopes and dreams in your hands. Has any King or Politician ever had some much power? A powerful leader can control ones destiny to only such a point, but history tells us they cannot crush human spirit or will. Maradona had the capablity to do that. The highs and lows of his career were felt on an entirely different level, to the depths where others cant penetrate. Football no longer becomes a game when results exhibit an almost god like ability to control the destiny and feelings of others. He became a signifier of the Argentinan version of the American dream; the kid from abject poverty, unathletic and under sized, who took on the world and got ten bells of sh*t ripped out of him, but picked himself up everytime, dusted himself off, and got back to business.

Try walking a mile in those shoes before calling him a cheat. Try appreciating what it would be like to have that weight on your shoulders. Would you punch the ball in the net to avoid the guilt are shame of letting those people down? What would that pressure after decades do to a man? How would they escape it? The drugs, cheating and behaviour seems an almost natural reaction to it. I wonder if we put any man in this position, would they fare any better? I guess the most comparable person in terms of celebrity in the history of humanity is Michael Jackson; another who died early than normal, another who lived his life in a sort of alternative reality where the pressure wore him down to the bone.

As sports people go, Maradona's legacy is unquestionably the one that hangs at another level. He proved that football could be played by any man, regardless of size or inherent physicality or natural fitness. He wasnt an athlete at all. Football is the worlds most popular sport because it is inclusive; you dont need money or fancy equipment, just a ball. You can kick a ball against a wall on your own, or throw down a shirt for a goal posts and play in the street. No bats, pads, sticks, nets or anything else required. There is no one that signifies that inclusion in football more than a small, fat man from the poorest of backgrounds being the worlds best player. Its impossible to under-estimate how the success of this one man ties in with the growth of modern football to all areas of the globe. He is without question the most important sportsman who ever lived.

And we havent even mentioned a single thing about his ability. If he isnt the best proponent of sporting ability that ever existed, then he is at least a nats whisker away from it in 2nd place. And for his age, he was miiillleesss better than anyone else around him; and the victory in 1986 (and final in 1990!!) are achievements made without the help of any other names. His achievements are mind blowing.

Lets not get too tied up on cheating or drug narratives..... the world lost one of its greatest artists yesterday. It is a worst place for it. I am thankful I was around to see Maradona play. I feel sad that he is gone. Always a colourful character who, despite his flaws, put a smile on your face with his antics and personality. I hope in death, he found the peace that was absent in his life.

RIP Diego.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I have never experienced anything like that to that extent, where a person has almost god like status and evokes such fondness and reverence.

SRT surely. There's even an actual religion.

[sussexpob]

SRT surely. There's even an actual religion.

Not to the same level. Cricket is nowhere near as big as football on the global level, and even taking its biggest market, things like how many people can afford to go for live matches or pay for cricket matches to watch on tv.... to even a consideration of how many people can actually afford a tv full stop. Id hesitate to guess until the later end of Tendulkar's career, the average Indian would probably have never seen him bat a single second of his career. I certainly found in my experience in India a huge disconnect of interest based on wealth; rich people loved talking about cricket, less rich people hardly acknowledge its existence.....and I went during the 2011 WC, at times aside from the Pakistan game, it was barely noticeable the tournament was on at times.

Maradona in contrast played at the crossroads of football where it was still very much a game for all classes and where tickets could be bought that included all people for games, while having more access to games on TV. I think I could go to any country on the planet and find someone who knows Maradona, I think I could find 15 that have heard of Tendulkar unless you are asking someone whos migrated from India.

I would never imagine Maradona playing Argentina to empty stands like Tendulkar did for many test matches.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Cricket in India must outrank football in Argentina, even if just in terms of size of the following. No comparison in terms of global following, but the cult is in the home country.

[sussexpob]

Cricket in India must outrank football in Argentina, even if just in terms of size of the following. No comparison in terms of global following, but the cult is in the home country.

Maradona's cult wasnt merely limited to Argentina though. You have to think that his life spans the period where every country in South America at some stage (or multiple times) falls to a dictatorship, where European and American imperialism and political interference had a lot to do with that, and as a result a huge rise in pan-Americanism comes into existence. That rise in pan-Americanism mostly manifested itself in the social or ethnic underclasses, and as a mestizo with European immigrant heritage born into a house with no electricity, he was instantly relatable to pretty much every single person in Latin America.

Think of that match vs England in 1986. A Brazilian watching would have seen it as a victory against the English domination of FIFA and its total disregard for South American football at this time (which still stings there) along with British support of military regimes that haunted Brazil. An Argentinian would have seen it as revenge for the Falklands War. A Chilean would have seen it as revenge against a Thatcher government who had helped Pinochet. In Paraguay revenge against Britain propping up Stroessner for decades. Repeated in Nicaragua, Mexico, Guatamala, El Salvador and Honduras where Thatcher and Reagan spent years backing human rights abusing dictators. When he sunk England, he may as well have been representing South America as much as Argentina.

Worth noting Maradona was a fierce outspoken critic of these dictators. He was a fierce critic of the Catholic church and told the Pope to sort his act out to help child poverty. He was a huge supporter of ethnic minorities in Latin America. He was personal friends of many of those politicians who supported dramatic changes in social programs on the continent. He was a fierce critic of American interference into Latin America, once legendarily being responsible for Bush cancelleing a visit for a Latin American conference in Argentina after appearing at a rally in La Plata with Hugo Chavez.

You see that imprint left in the culture on the continent. The failure of right wing liberalizations of the economies that devastated countries in the late 80s and early 90s gave way in the 2000s to changes; Chavez, Moralez, et al... all friends of Maradona. I am not saying he is responsible, but his personal choices of who he supported seem to co-incide with the endemic culture of those in South America, showing how in tune he was to the continent as a whole.

He was basically an advocate for the whole continents historically represent and under classes..... Tendulkar was a rich kid who could hit a ball well.

Its not comparable.

[Alviro Patterson]

Watched the Diego Maradona documentary on Channel 4.

Often getting kicked on the shins whilst he had the ball, but still kept charging forward and not feigned injury or looked for a penalty.

Pure respect on that alone, Maradona would boss it on a cold Tuesday night in Stoke.

[sussexpob]

Watched the Diego Maradona documentary on Channel 4.

Often getting kicked on the shins whilst he had the ball, but still kept charging forward and not feigned injury or looked for a penalty.

Pure respect on that alone, Maradona would boss it on a cold Tuesday night in Stoke.

I never watched it, I have no idea why as I loved the Senna movie the guy did. I guess the most famous is the full on riot he had at Barcelona.... after being kicked all game, and it ends in a maul, you see the smallest guy on the field charging into the ruck with Bruce Lee kicks and throwing punches.

The man was insane. Totally bonkers.... but as you say, his bravery and flat out balls are truly something to behold. Never backed out of anything.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Cricket in India must outrank football in Argentina, even if just in terms of size of the following. No comparison in terms of global following, but the cult is in the home country.

Maradona's cult wasnt merely limited to Argentina though. You have to think that his life spans the period where every country in South America at some stage (or multiple times) falls to a dictatorship, where European and American imperialism and political interference had a lot to do with that, and as a result a huge rise in pan-Americanism comes into existence. That rise in pan-Americanism mostly manifested itself in the social or ethnic underclasses, and as a mestizo with European immigrant heritage born into a house with no electricity, he was instantly relatable to pretty much every single person in Latin America.

Think of that match vs England in 1986. A Brazilian watching would have seen it as a victory against the English domination of FIFA and its total disregard for South American football at this time (which still stings there) along with British support of military regimes that haunted Brazil. An Argentinian would have seen it as revenge for the Falklands War. A Chilean would have seen it as revenge against a Thatcher government who had helped Pinochet. In Paraguay revenge against Britain propping up Stroessner for decades. Repeated in Nicaragua, Mexico, Guatamala, El Salvador and Honduras where Thatcher and Reagan spent years backing human rights abusing dictators. When he sunk England, he may as well have been representing South America as much as Argentina.

Worth noting Maradona was a fierce outspoken critic of these dictators. He was a fierce critic of the Catholic church and told the Pope to sort his act out to help child poverty. He was a huge supporter of ethnic minorities in Latin America. He was personal friends of many of those politicians who supported dramatic changes in social programs on the continent. He was a fierce critic of American interference into Latin America, once legendarily being responsible for Bush cancelleing a visit for a Latin American conference in Argentina after appearing at a rally in La Plata with Hugo Chavez.

You see that imprint left in the culture on the continent. The failure of right wing liberalizations of the economies that devastated countries in the late 80s and early 90s gave way in the 2000s to changes; Chavez, Moralez, et al... all friends of Maradona. I am not saying he is responsible, but his personal choices of who he supported seem to co-incide with the endemic culture of those in South America, showing how in tune he was to the continent as a whole.

He was basically an advocate for the whole continents historically represent and under classes..... Tendulkar was a rich kid who could hit a ball well.

Its not comparable.

Hmm!

[Arthur Crabtree]

Not these arguments, but a similar abstract analysis of Maradona I've heard before used to justify the hand of god goal, but I'm not sure it works for me. Mainly because it excuses the kind of intolerance that sometimes seems evident in why England fans get so angry about it and are so unwilling to forget, despite the whole forest of gamesmanship that has grown up around this incident over the past 34 years. OK, build up a mythology around Maradona based on him skinning Peter Reid and Terry Fenwick but not upon him cheating.

I know you're not doing that.

The arguments I've read often appear ingenious but seem overstated and tenuous to me, but I'm happy to concede I don't know enough about it. I have more personal experience of the deification of Sachin. If part of Maradona's appeal is that he struck a blow against a hated adversary, it can't be difficult to assemble a similar narrative around the British in India.

Good and interesting argument made.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Can still see Gary Lineker missing a sitter from a John Barnes cross in the last minute that would have taken England into extra time; and after being outclassed for 80m at last on top with Barnes tearing them up on the left as a late sub.

[Gingerfinch]

Can still see Gary Lineker missing a sitter from a John Barnes cross in the last minute that would have taken England into extra time; and after being outclassed for 80m at last on top with Barnes tearing them up on the left as a late sub.

It was a great bit of defending by the Argentine

[bigfluffylemon]

Interesting discussion here. Like AC, I haven't experienced the deification of Maradona by Argentines, but I have been to India many times and seen the cricket religion there. It is possible, if you try to put yourself in another's shoes, to understand why people cheat in professional sport. The same reason as why so many young people, when they have fame and spotlight thrust upon them, turn to drugs to cope. That doesn't mean we have to condone it.

The thing that gets me is that Maradona didn't need to cheat in that game. 4 minutes after the hand of god, he scored what has been (rightly, in my view), lauded as one of the greatest goals ever. If it were the 89th minute, scoreline at 1-1, with everything riding on whether he connects or not, it would be more understandable, but it was still the 40 minutes to go, for crying outloud. The other things that staggers me was imagine if he had been caught? It's a yellow card offence at least - what's the backlash if your sporting god gets caught and penalised for cheating? If he'd been caught, and Argentina had lost, would he have been vilified instead? Obviously we'll never know.

Astonishing talent, no doubt about that.

[sussexpob]

Not these arguments, but a similar abstract analysis of Maradona I've heard before used to justify the hand of god goal, but I'm not sure it works for me. Mainly because it excuses the kind of intolerance that sometimes seems evident in why England fans get so angry about it and are so unwilling to forget, despite the whole forest of gamesmanship that has grown up around this incident over the past 34 years

The point wasnt to justify the hand of God. He cheated, you cant really defend. But should that come to define him? As you point out, I could point out a cheater in every single game of football I ever watch; the wanton dives, the play acting etc. Someone who dives and wins a penalty, which happens in masses of games, indulges in the same level of cheating. The hype of the cheat to me lies in a sort of exceptionalism light that English people see themselves in. When Rooney scored 20 penalties for England from dives, he was a salt of the Earth honest Englishman, but Maradona was a cheater. There is sort of racial superiority view so neatly tied in with it.... a great motivator to ignore it in his legacy. I find people who want to dwell on it or define him by it largely have ulterior motives.

Its so obvious because we are so happy to ignore it reflected in those we are more inclined to like. As an example, how many cricket fans would say Sachin is a cheater? Didnt he get busted for ball tampering at one stage? You never see that mentioned, yet Steve Smith will pay for it for the rest of his days. How different is the same act punished or remembered?

[sussexpob]

The arguments I've read often appear ingenious but seem overstated and tenuous to me, but I'm happy to concede I don't know enough about it. I have more personal experience of the deification of Sachin. If part of Maradona's appeal is that he struck a blow against a hated adversary, it can't be difficult to assemble a similar narrative around the British in India.

I think its hard for English people to understand at points how different the culture of football is outside of its borders. Class in English sport mostly manifests itself in what type of sport people gravitate towards, so inside a given sport there is never really any rivalries that exist that arent based on geographical proximity; other than the fact its in a different London Area and they have different colour shirts, what are the great differences between traditional West Ham fans and those of Millwall? Where 30 mile either side of Manchester does culture suddenly change to justify the levels of hatred the football teams historically had with Liverpool and Leeds? Nothing. They are just pretty close on a map.

Not the same elsewhere. Other countries dont dedicate themselves to other sports as much, and certainly historically on a professional level with widespread status, hardly any other sports exist outside the English speaking world. So those class divides find themselves rooted in football, they define the shape of the clubs, how they do business, what players want to play for them, how they were formed. A good example following Maradona is Argentina; Boca are the team of the urban poor, River are the team from the upmarket area of town, San Lorenzo are the team for Catholics, Racing Club from the old car manufacturing unions, Colegiates for extreme anarchists'. You grow up in the slums of La Boca and wore a River shirt, it would be a betrayal of your past and your roots. Those clubs are also not just football. Another thing that is tremendously common everywhere else, but not in England is, these are sporting and cultural clubs too. They have swimming teams, basketball teams, everything. So if you grow up in an area and become a member, they are recreational and social centres too.

In South America (and in Europe to some extent, but much more in SA) these clubs also maintain fan alliances with other like minded clubs. A club like Boca even have strong alliances with Fenerbache in Istanbul, they play a friendly together most years. So there is huge community that crosses borders. When you say Maradona is a God in Argentina, it resonant all over this sort of socioeconomic network. Its complex to describe, but its very real and not tenuous in the slightest. There is a real spirit of comradeship between fan groups of like minded politics. Even taking someone like the most famous Argentinian before Maradona, Di Stefano... he played for three clubs, the rich club of Argentina, Millionaros of Colombia (guess who they are the team for) and ended up playing for the Royal team of Spain. A good example of how a player from a certain background in South America would choose clubs on status or class. If you are really interested, look at the criticism that Ronaldinho got when he moved clubs in Brazil (hes been disregarded as a traitor despite winning a world cup for the country). Its really complex. I could go on all day.

And Maradona was a Boca guy, Id say the biggest of the South American clubs, and because it was a working class club at heart, also maintains alliances and popularity with clubs formed from trade unions and industrial/manufacturing sectors. The cult really does explode out of Argentina. It was only strengthened by the fact he was such an advocate for those people he represented to. A lot of people sharing his background in South America would support him, regardless of what country they were in.