Pakistan tour of England 2019

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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed May 15, 2019 6:43 pm

I did set the balls bowled deliberately high (though bowlers playing only 20 games are qualifying) because a new bowler may well be less exposed by familiarity than the ENgland bowlers who have been in the cross hairs for quite some time. And some bowlers get to play a lot of associate sides and that's quite different from confronting the top sixes of India or England. Not their fault though.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed May 15, 2019 6:49 pm

I read on cricinfo that Woakes has been the best first ten over wicket taker in ODIs in the past year or so.

At least the England bowlers add plenty of batting! I'm not saying they're a strong bowling line up, but I do think they carry a wicket taking threat that wasn't there running into the last wc.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby bigfluffylemon » Thu May 16, 2019 12:13 am

sussexpob wrote:
bigfluffylemon wrote:Good chase by England. The bowling is a bit of a worry, but I do wonder if their poor stats over the last four years are at least in part due to the fact that all their home games are played on stupidly flat decks prepared on purpose to aid England's strength in batting...


Doesnt show in the stats, BFL. Englands bowlers are more expensive away than at home (5.92 away, 5.8s at home) since 2016. I complained about this in the winter, and have pretty strongly concluded there is no argument, other than one that England's bowlers are just pretty shocking. If you were to attach them onto other batting line ups, they wouldnt be successful. They are constantly bailed out by a team that makes 360 with 5 overs and 6 wickets to spare, like the last match./quote]

Interesting stat - thanks. So that's not the answer. Hard not to agree that our bowling is weak.

One quite striking record that I think shows the weakness of our bowling, but also does lend some credence to the theory that England's bowling stats are so rubbish because teams go after them hard when chasing big totals is the frankly ridiculous discrepancy in our record when setting a target vs chasing.

When chasing, England have a W/L record of 5.6 since September 2015, more than double the next best (India with 2.2). We have comfortably the highest average chasing, the highest run rate. We have not lost at home chasing in that time and have only lost 5 times away, on 4 of those 5 occasions by less than 35 runs, twice by less than 15. We're as close to unbeatable as it realistically gets chasing. Yet in that time, we have only conceded more than 280 on 10 occasions bowling first out of 35 completed games - a little over 25%. Our bowling average is 33 in these situations and RPO conceded 5.6 - comfortably middle of the pack - some way worse than India or South Africa with 29, but on par with Australia, Pakistan and Bangladesh, and better than Sri Lanka or West Indies.

When setting a target, it's a different story. W/L record of 1.7 - still not bad, but third of the major teams behind India and Sri Lanka. We have the fastest scoring rate still, but only 4th best batting average, behind Pakistan, India and South Africa. When defending a target, our bowling average is nearly the worst of any major team, and our RPO is conceded is 5.9 - the worst by anybody, including associates. When defending a target, we have conceded more than 280 on 12 occasions out of 36 completed games, but we've only lost 9 of those matches - we won 3, and we have set a target of more than 280 on 25 occasions out of 36, winning 22 of those 25. Yet when we've set less than 280, we've defended it precisely twice, and lost on the other 9 occasions.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ;type=team
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ;type=team

Conclusion: England really do only have a plan A - go hard batting or go home. It works quite often, but on some occasions our batsmen go out too hard, fail to set a good target, and there is no plan B. When chasing, our batsmen know exactly how hard they can go on the pitch, don't go too hard and fall in a heap, as we have the batting strength to chase down anything.

In other words, as I think we already know - to beat England, win the toss and ask us to bat, then we've probably got no better than a 50:50 shot of beating a top side (India, South Africa or New Zealand). So pray that we win the toss and chase in both the semi and the final, and we'll win.

I do think it does show that part of the reason our bowling stats are so poor is that teams go harder against us when chasing because they have to - we set bigger targets than other sides when Plan A comes off, and usually the opposition does fall in a heap in those circumstances. But both chasing and defending, our bowling is definitely weak among the major teams.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby alfie » Thu May 16, 2019 7:35 am

I don't think we need pages of statistics to accept that England's bowling is their weaker suit...It is hardly remarkable , as unlike most of the other teams , the white ball outfit does not contain either of the two best bowlers in the country.

Not to suggest this is wrong : given their relative age it has made good sense for Anderson and Broad to be kept for the Test Matches which now suit them and the team far better ; but any country only has so many outstanding bowlers at a time and it just so happens that England's best aren't available for 50 over World Cups. Contrast Australia who will rely heavily on Starc and Cummins in both formats , NZ likewise with Boult and Southee , India looking to Bumrah...

Given the restricted field they've had to pick from I think England have managed quite well : obviously they couldn't have done so without the outstanding batting but then they haven't had to. Could they have improved the bowling by trying someone else ? I'm not sure they could to be honest . Other bowlers have been tried , but injuries and underwhelming results have left the field pretty much as it is at present ...the only new entrant is Archer. Whether he will actually prove the sensation that is being widely predicted remains open to question for now but it seems likely he will be given the chance ( though I am still puzzled that they didn't take the opportunity to see him play a full fifty over game on a flat pitch the other day ).

As BFL points out England are near-invincible chasing on flat decks. The danger remains they could bat first and get skittled in semi or final ( they are surely nailed on to reach the knock outs , barring an extraordinary loss of form). And if they were then it is doubtful their bowling could save them...but to be fair that is largely true of the rest of the leading teams too. Few sides defend small totals these days in ODI.

In any case they have the players they have so it is wasted breath complaining about it. Hope they all stay fit and they pick the right combination for the matches as they come. They aren't always that good at judging conditions I'm afraid but I think Morgan by now has a pretty good idea of his team's strengths and weaknesses so I remain hopeful they can get the job done.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu May 16, 2019 7:43 am

Broad wouldn't get in the team on merit if he was available. I don't think Anderson would strengthen the side either. Those two have disappointed quite enough in limited overs.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu May 16, 2019 7:45 am

Maybe Tredwell could have been kept. But I thought it was fair enough to draw a line under England's bowling after the last WC.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby alfie » Thu May 16, 2019 7:59 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Broad wouldn't get in the team on merit if he was available. I don't think Anderson would strengthen the side either. Those two have disappointed quite enough in limited overs.


Oh no I wasn't suggesting they should. Just that they are the two class bowlers in the land and as they aren't ODI candidates it is hardly surprising that the remaining bowling staff won't measure up to some other team's first choice attacks. Any country has a limited number of undoubted top class bowlers at a time ; and if your first couple aren't suitable for a particular format ...well that's too bad.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby sussexpob » Thu May 16, 2019 2:13 pm

alfie wrote:Given the restricted field they've had to pick from I think England have managed quite well : obviously they couldn't have done so without the outstanding batting but then they haven't had to. Could they have improved the bowling by trying someone else ? I'm not sure they could to be honest . Other bowlers have been tried , but injuries and underwhelming results have left the field pretty much as it is at present ...the only new entrant is Archer. Whether he will actually prove the sensation that is being widely predicted remains open to question for now but it seems likely he will be given the chance ( though I am still puzzled that they didn't take the opportunity to see him play a full fifty over game on a flat pitch the other day )


There is a common thread in England's ODI bowlers; they can all bat. When England adopted an all out attack method with the bat, there were still a majority of prats who thought it was impossible for a team to bat aggressively and not be totally annihilated through the order, so batting deep seemed to be a appeasement of that, and as England have wracked up massive scores and been successful, it seems the bowlers picked have pretty much stayed in situ, their poor performance not being called into question because (a) they add to England's victory providing strengths (b) people seem to find it difficult to question weaknesses when a team does well, and just accept the net effect.

Where any of these bowlers a particularly noteworthy standout in county cricket? Rashid was picked 10 years ago more as a youth prodigy who had depth in both skill fields, was largely forgotten, then returned despite his county record not being outstanding. Mo Ali was picked originally as an opening bat. The selection of Chris Woakes in 2011 in Australia was deeply questioned at the time, because his record was appalling in CC one dayers. Dave Willey has an econ of 5.7 in county cricket and was only picked after it turned out he could whack the ball in the T20 blast and England salivated at the prospect of late order smashing, Liam Plunkett debuted nearly 15 years ago, and his econ rate at 5.6 that broaches a majority of a cricketing history where par scores of 125 runs less then they are now really puts into perspective how expensive he has been historically.... be he can also clobber a ball. I dont think when these people were picked, the primary concern was how well they bowled, it was how well they could hit.

You say England have trawled through players? Which players have they picked?

Olly Stone..... he'd only taken about 15 wickets in OD at a plus 45 average when he got the call, and he wasnt economical. Only the selectors will understand that.
The Curran brothers, take their batting out the equation and their FC records along with their perceived potential for their age, are you left with two outstanding OD performers in the current? I dont think so. Jake Ball and Harry Gurney had frankly horrendous records in county List A games, they were routinely going for over a run a ball (econs in the 5.9 range). These should never have been picked. Reece Topley, Ill give you him on the injury scale. Roland-Jones played one game, and although he got injured in 2018, England had ignored him for several years as he smashed county sides apart, so England cant blame one injury period for not being able to find out what he offers. Who else is there?

Going back a tad further, we picked Parry, he bowled under an econ of 5 in both games, never returned. We dropped Craig Overton after about 5 overs in a ODI game, despite his record being very solid in counties (with bat and ball), and picked the inferior Tom Curran 15 times in his place. Dawson played 2 matches (3 if you count the one he didnt get the ball in), and was dropped after 6 overs at 1/26, which is pretty decent return in any game to go under 5 an over. He was dropped for Ali, who has averaged nearly 7 an over after. Dawson I think has had a couple of years where his econs are in the 4s in county cricket, which in the context of the modern game, should have given him the right to play about 15 straight games before we judged him. Not many of the people getting into the side have really proven themselves to be consistently great bowlers in the level below.

You go back, Steve Finn was one of our best ODI bowlers. He got dropped before the Champions Trophy in 2017 and never returned.... he played 4 ODIs that year with an Econ rate of 4.6...... :facepalm How many people in the Bayliss era can say they have got near that? Why was he jettisoned so easily? His econ rate is just over 5 (5.06) in 67 matches, and a half decent proven ability to take wickets.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby Slipstream » Fri May 17, 2019 2:33 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Broad wouldn't get in the team on merit if he was available. I don't think Anderson would strengthen the side either. Those two have disappointed quite enough in limited overs.


He wasn't that bad. http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 26831.html

Anderson was number 6 in the rankings in 2015, Broad was at 49.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri May 17, 2019 1:54 pm

All change in the bowling. But England still going at six an over.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby sussexpob » Fri May 17, 2019 2:13 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:All change in the bowling. But England still going at six an over.


Tom Curran is basically playing himself out of the World Cup squad.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby yuppie » Fri May 17, 2019 3:03 pm

Im guessing that these type of pitches will be prepared for the world cup as well?
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby yuppie » Fri May 17, 2019 3:20 pm

Pak are going to need at least 400 here, probably more. No real urgency here.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri May 17, 2019 3:28 pm

Two overs for eight for Archer there. But England missing Plunkett's wickets. Pretty vulnerable going into the last 15 with two set batters and nine wickets in hand.
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Re: Pakistan tour of England 2019

Postby yuppie » Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 pm

8 wickets left now. Judging by recent scores at TB, Pakistan are looking well short at present
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