India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

India in SL ,Pak in WI, Bang in Oz

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jul 30, 2025 1:28 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Zak Crawley, Ben Duckett, Ollie Pope (captain), Joe Root, Harry Brook, Jacob Bethell, Jamie Smith (wicketkeeper), Chris Woakes, Gus Atkinson, Jamie Overton, Josh Tongue.


This team scares the life out of me from a bowling perspective. Not picking a viable 5th bowling option nor any front line spinner is a risk when you have a world class bowling attack, but when you have one seamer who is utterly cooked after a big workload all summer, one coming back directly from a few months injury, one who has basically retired and hasn't bowled anywhere near 25 overs in the current decade, and one who is two career saving surgeries away from retirement and had to have 2 matches off after a long spell at Birmingham.... its verging on suicidal.

What happens in the scenario where India get to 50-60 overs with only a couple of wickets lost? All your pace options are 15 overs in, confronting the idea of a 3rd spell, paces are down, everything threatens to slide out of control..... where is the ball going? Is the plan at that stage to hand the ball to a guy with a FC average of 70, in a series vs the best players of spin in the world who made superior spinners look terrible? Dawson had to bowl nearly 50 overs last innings, if that is required again then Root and Bethell become your fundamental bowling attack.... this is absolute madness.

Even assuming the pace bowlers keep going, these are selections on pace. The bowlers are supposed to be shock bowlers banging it in at high speeds.... you really think Overton 25 overs into a test match, having not bowled that many overs for years, is bowling top pace? When Tongue was required to pick up the slack in Birmingham and bowled 12 overs off the bounce, his pace dropped to medium, he got splattered.... 0/80 odd. Its where the Key thinking just doesn't add up. India have the most 350 run scores in test history in this series, we can assume at some point in this match if its another flat deck, that each of England's paceman have to bowl 20-25 maybe even 30 overs. None of these shock bowlers tend to bowl that much, and when they do the pace by over 15 will be well down.

If India get 50 overs into the test with only 1 or 2 wickets down, its likely to get ugly. Tired paceman at half pace, supplemented by county part-timer spin. It wouldn't surprise me if India ended up with 600 on the board. This attack basically needs to rock India quickly. If they don't rip out the top order with the new ball and get down the tail quick, then they have problems without the 5th bowler.

I can only assume the pitch at the Oval is going to do something, and they know it, because its the only thing that makes the team make sense.

Although I am pretty sure Surrey scored 800/7 or something the other week on the test match strip, so I doubt it.
2010 French Open fantasy league guru 2010 Wimbledon fantasy league guru 2014 Masters golf fantasy guru 2015 Players Championship FL Guru 2016 Masters Golf Fantasy Guru

And a hat and bra to you too, my good sirs!
sussexpob
 
Posts: 40084
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:14 pm
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Team(s) Supported: Sussex and England Cricket, Vålerenga Fotball/FC Barcelona/Seagulls! ....
England and Norway at everything else

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jul 30, 2025 2:36 pm

I read that spinners can't take a wicket at the Oval this year. But I'd still play a viable spinner. CC games don't go to five games. Or usually feature pace bowlers bowling beyond their natural pace. My armchair selection is Curran for Stokes and Leach for Dawson, Tongue and Atkinson for Archer and Carse and omit Overton. But it might leave Atkinson, Tongue and Woakes a lot of overs to bowl.
I always say that everybody's right.
User avatar
Arthur Crabtree
 
Posts: 89001
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Nottingham
Team(s) Supported: Yorkshire.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jul 30, 2025 2:45 pm

Though Rehan's record this season is eyecatching!
I always say that everybody's right.
User avatar
Arthur Crabtree
 
Posts: 89001
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Nottingham
Team(s) Supported: Yorkshire.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Gingerfinch » Wed Jul 30, 2025 3:23 pm

I think I'd rather Root bowl than Dawson!
2014 SA-Oz Tests fantasy guru
User avatar
Gingerfinch
 
Posts: 21852
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Oxford
Team(s) Supported: Wycombe Wanderers.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jul 30, 2025 5:17 pm

Is this the Liam Dawson backlash!?
I always say that everybody's right.
User avatar
Arthur Crabtree
 
Posts: 89001
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Nottingham
Team(s) Supported: Yorkshire.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jul 30, 2025 9:13 pm

Late series bonus to get Atkinson back.
I always say that everybody's right.
User avatar
Arthur Crabtree
 
Posts: 89001
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Nottingham
Team(s) Supported: Yorkshire.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jul 30, 2025 11:47 pm

With England essentially going in with an all pace attack, keep an eye on the over rate.
I always say that everybody's right.
User avatar
Arthur Crabtree
 
Posts: 89001
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Nottingham
Team(s) Supported: Yorkshire.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jul 31, 2025 8:02 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Though Rehan's record this season is eyecatching!


He has 5 fc hundreds this season, whereas Bethell has none, ever.
I always say that everybody's right.
User avatar
Arthur Crabtree
 
Posts: 89001
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Nottingham
Team(s) Supported: Yorkshire.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby alfie » Thu Jul 31, 2025 8:18 am

Unlike a few on here I am not too unhappy with the XI they've picked - given what was actually available. Of course it could all go badly wrong ! Any selection could - especially when the main centre of balance of the side isn't there ... but the "ideal" group isn't an option. Wood isn't ready ; those omitted are cooked ; and does anyone seriously believe Cook would frighten India based on his efforts against Zimbabwe ? I personally would have preferred Potts over Overton but I haven't been watching his CC season so have little other than past impressions on which to base that : suppose something about keeping the batting extra deep might be a factor ? Also don't mind Arthur's floating of Curran : but again haven't recent observations to go on. As for Dawson he is a victim of necessity : a "holding" spinner (which on the evidence of last week is all he is at this level) is not a fit for a team needing four outright pace bowlers on a pitch not expected to give anything to the spinners . Root and Bethell can bowl some junk overs and probably can't take any worse than 1/140.

Has this attack any hope of dismissing India twice ? Will be a struggle if this pitch is as lifeless as the last one : hopefully it will not die quite as badly , though I don't expect it to be the typical "English conditions" pitch - of the sort which probably brings about the most entertaining cricket. That last would be desirable but a casualty of the very hot summer as much as the desire of management to have five day matches ? A lot will depend on Atkinson , I'd imagine. His form was magnificent last year (with the qualification that he wasn't playing India or Australia) and if he can reproduce that post injury absence he ought to be an effective spearhead. Tongue's brief Test record really isn't too bad - and he does at least seem to have a knack of knocking over the tail : be nice if he could match the top order scalps he managed at Lord's 2023 (Warner twice , Smith and Khawaja) As for Woakes I don't think he looked as knackered as his pacier colleagues ; and since pace isn't his weapon he may well still be the new ball threat he can be as well as the experience factor in this fairly raw group. Overton ? Well I just hope he can do a shift : any demonstration of destructive power would be a bonus.

Their big problem will be that in the absence of Stokes the "magic" factor so often needed on benign surfaces just won't be there (and the dynamic leadership too I suppose). So yes India may well make a lot of runs. As they generally have all summer ... and so have England. One must note that India are also being forced to rearrange their attack (again) due to bowler fatigue and may also be going in with one or two important cutting edges absent or blunted. Could we actually see successive drawn matches ?

Only one side needs a result in this one : and how that affects tactics on both sides may well go a long way to deciding how this match goes.
alfie
 
Posts: 7969
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:26 am

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jul 31, 2025 9:27 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote: He has 5 fc hundreds this season, whereas Bethell has none, ever.


Almost like my comments about the pathway become instantly relevant here. One kid from the council estates of Nottingham playing each week and performing, the other who followed the exact same private education path as Plum Warner, the epitome of the gentleman captain/administrator of the test crickets golden age, who has done nothing but hit a few runs against crap varsity attacks in big private school annual high society socialite occasions.

Bethell was labelled a generational talent since he was a kid - I am sure this has nothing to do with the fact Garfield Sobers was his dad's golfing partner and a close family friend, the fact that his school coach was Brian Lara who also is a family friend, the fact that his dad played club cricket with Michael Vaughan and is a close family friend... or the fact that his dad also played with Matt Root and guess what... they are close friends with the family. There are photos of Root with Bethell on holiday together. You don't need to score runs or even bother to play in FC cricket with friends like that in higher places. Root particularly has been outspoken about how good he is.

He's in the team because of nepotism, not merit.
2010 French Open fantasy league guru 2010 Wimbledon fantasy league guru 2014 Masters golf fantasy guru 2015 Players Championship FL Guru 2016 Masters Golf Fantasy Guru

And a hat and bra to you too, my good sirs!
sussexpob
 
Posts: 40084
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:14 pm
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Team(s) Supported: Sussex and England Cricket, Vålerenga Fotball/FC Barcelona/Seagulls! ....
England and Norway at everything else

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jul 31, 2025 9:44 am

Maybe Bethell is such a talisman for the hunch pick, and the pathway, that his success or otherwise will be a case study for the whole process.

Although as you suggest, they've been there with Josh Hull, who still doesn't have a fc 5-fer.
I always say that everybody's right.
User avatar
Arthur Crabtree
 
Posts: 89001
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Nottingham
Team(s) Supported: Yorkshire.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Gingerfinch » Thu Jul 31, 2025 10:05 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Is this the Liam Dawson backlash!?


My issue is picking a player because he can bat a bit. Not really bazball style!!!

I do get that he can keep it tight but we needed a spinner who could take wickets, ala Lyon, on that last day

Do we have anyone in county cricket?
2014 SA-Oz Tests fantasy guru
User avatar
Gingerfinch
 
Posts: 21852
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Oxford
Team(s) Supported: Wycombe Wanderers.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jul 31, 2025 10:48 am

Leach is the top spinner in county cricket at the moment. But it's well known what he can/can't do. Bashir is promising, but hasn't really hit the ground running. Credit to England for giving him a good run. He looks a fair bet for the Ashes. Rehan's younger brother Farhan is only 17, but gets fulsome write ups, though doesn't always play for Notts. Rehan- who is still only 20- has 21 wickets at 16 in CC2. Tom Hartley had an eyecatching game last week, but is only having a so-so season.
I always say that everybody's right.
User avatar
Arthur Crabtree
 
Posts: 89001
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 12:52 pm
Location: Nottingham
Team(s) Supported: Yorkshire.

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jul 31, 2025 10:48 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Maybe Bethell is such a talisman for the hunch pick, and the pathway, that his success or otherwise will be a case study for the whole process. Although as you suggest, they've been there with Josh Hull, who still doesn't have a fc 5-fer.


The narrative about prodigies only ever surfaces when the original selection is made, in order to justify the unjustifiable, then it disappears. Its not hard to see the links between these sorts of players and those who are picking them though. Josh Hull went to school in Stamford in Lincolnshire, the head of selectors is from Grantham a few miles away and both came through the academy at Leicestershire. I wonder why Luke Wright paid special attention to him?

The main maverick pick of recent times is Zak Crawley, who Ed Smith selected ponying up all kinds of stats analysis and nonsense about how he was the perfect specimen of the pathway, the ultimate prospect despite his measly county returns - Ed Smith went to Tonbridge School, I give you one guess where Zak Crawley was educated... ah yes, Tonbridge? Wonder why Zak Crawley is still in the side nowadays? Well he came through the Kent academy at a time a certain England Director was responsible for it, and they both played club cricket in Bromley. Almost like this is a reason the England setup have publically stated Crawley does not even have to perform consistently.

You can go on endlessly in a line. How did Rob Key himself get the job with zero administration or official coaching experience? Ah, well it was a certain ex-ECB Managing Director who worked with him at Kent who came out to explain that decision and why he was actually experienced despite never having any roles. The same managing director who wrote the actual current pathway system thats in place.
2010 French Open fantasy league guru 2010 Wimbledon fantasy league guru 2014 Masters golf fantasy guru 2015 Players Championship FL Guru 2016 Masters Golf Fantasy Guru

And a hat and bra to you too, my good sirs!
sussexpob
 
Posts: 40084
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:14 pm
Location: Brussels, Belgium
Team(s) Supported: Sussex and England Cricket, Vålerenga Fotball/FC Barcelona/Seagulls! ....
England and Norway at everything else

Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Gingerfinch » Thu Jul 31, 2025 10:52 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Leach is the top spinner in county cricket at the moment. But it's well known what he can/can't do. Bashir is promising, but hasn't really hit the ground running. Credit to England for giving him a good run. He looks a fair bet for the Ashes. Rehan's younger brother Farhan is only 17, but gets fulsome write ups, though doesn't always play for Notts. Rehan- who is still only 20- has 21 wickets at 16 in CC2. Tom Hartley had an eyecatching game last week, but is only having a so-so season.


Rehan must be knocking on the door quite loudly.
2014 SA-Oz Tests fantasy guru
User avatar
Gingerfinch
 
Posts: 21852
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:18 pm
Location: Oxford
Team(s) Supported: Wycombe Wanderers.

PreviousNext

Return to Live Cricket Matches

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 38 guests