England tour of India

[bigfluffylemon]

Geez, I wish we had Bell and Colly now.

[Alviro Patterson]

There's just too much cricket going on for multi format players to properly prepare for test cricket. When has the likes of Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes and Archer played a spell of County Championship cricket? As seen in the last Ireland test, it is nigh on impossible to go from playing white ball to red ball without proper preparation.

Australia are going to gain a natural advantage in playing Shield Cricket (and not let red ball England players participate) whilst the Twenty20 World Cup is underway. The odds are against England before the 1st test begins. At least with the Twenty20 World Cup, not only England players are playing in a marquee domestic tournament in India but also have The Hundred where international players and the best domestic players are involved.

[Durhamfootman]

the odds are against England in Australia anyway. It takes a great England side to win over there and this isn't one of those sides.

[sussexpob]

Silverwood also confirmed England won't be getting their IPL players back if their teams get that far, even if it means missing the NZ series. In the same breath he told us workloads meant resting players for all series going forward, including the Ashes.

So the IPL is now the sole focus of the England team and the only tournament players won't be rested or removed from, even when the person paying their wages needs them?

I can just imagine when we inevitably get battered in ashes with half a B team, how it's going to look when those boys fly straight out to India for another R&R trip of 2 months high pressure cricket.

normally I would agree with every bit of that, but alongside regaining the ashes, winning the T20 world cup is the big priority for England

Silverwood said yesterday the Ashes are the priority, so while we have discussed the point and to some level I understand wanting prep for the T20 WC, England scheduled a test series during their own T20 tournament and arent saying that themselves. And it would make sense to say it, because it mitigates some of the decision making.

[Alviro Patterson]

the odds are against England in Australia anyway. It takes a great England side to win over there and this isn't one of those sides.

Depends on good Australia are. Great bowling attack, but their batting is not that good apart from Smith.

Meticulous planning what won England the Ashes in 2010-11 when our bowling attack didn't look like taking 20 wickets a match. Selecting Chris Tremlett was a masterstroke, along with the emergence of Finn.

Joe Root makes a point that the draws in County Championship cricket need to be worth more to encourage longer batting. If anything that would reduce dead rubber matches in the County Championship with the new format.

Also Michael Atherton's suggestion of playing County Championship cricket during The Hundred. Would the standard really go down? Probably for 3 weeks in August when the India test gets underway, but this can be mitigated by playing the 1st 3 rounds of One Day Cup cricket and the rest in September.

[bigfluffylemon]

I don't know how much of an impact the T20 world cup would, or should, have. How many players overlap the test and T20 sides now? Stokes, Buttler and Archer, that's about it (assuming they're going to drop Root for the T20s, which they should, and it's still questionable whether Buttler should play tests).

But when you look at the timing of the CC, and the quality of players coming through it, you have to conclude that the standard has gone down immensely. When was the last time a batsman came from the CC to success in the test arena? Trott didn't develop in the CC, and Root was very young when he was first picked for England, so didn't have long-term proven county form. There haven't been many in the last decade, and those that did reasonably (Compton springs to mind) were horribly mismanaged in the England set-up.

India have shown that it is possible to win in Australia. Now, arguably the current India are a great side, or getting close to it. But Australia's batting is fragile. Smith is great, but a reasonable proportion of his big returns have come when the openers (Warner especially) have already got Australia off to a great start and taken the shine off the ball. Get him in early, and you've got a chance. Warner is usually productive at home. The rest are inconsistent at best. And the much-vaunted Australian attack failed to take 10 fourth-innings Indian wickets twice in a row. Lyon's record at home is fine but not incredible - he's one of those bowlers who gets on a roll sometimes, but when he's relied on to turn a match for Australia, he doesn't always produce.

Do I think England will win? No, our batting is a shambles, and has been for ages. We'll get bowled out cheaply too often to win Down Under. But we should be capable of better than our current trajectory.

[Alviro Patterson]

Bairstow, Sam Curran, Moeen Ali, Chris Woakes are often in and around the test squad, but will struggle to get any County Championship cricket in this year.

Bowlers need to build up their stocks. Archer and Stokes are at risk of being undercooked, whilst Anderson and Wood don't need to do much to pick up an injury. This leaves Broad and Leach the only bowlers who can guarantee match fitness.

If Ollie Stone can stay injury free this year, he may well be a Tremlett inspired pick. Can Steven Finn roll back the years? All eyes are bound to be on Richard Gleeson. Age won't be an issue as he has not had the wear and tear of a journeyman player. If only Jack Brooks was a few years younger. Duanne Olivier is 11 months away from England qualification

[sussexpob]

But when you look at the timing of the CC, and the quality of players coming through it, you have to conclude that the standard has gone down immensely. When was the last time a batsman came from the CC to success in the test arena? Trott didn't develop in the CC, and Root was very young when he was first picked for England, so didn't have long-term proven county form. There haven't been many in the last decade, and those that did reasonably (Compton springs to mind) were horribly mismanaged in the England set-up

There should be no surprise to England that the CC has declined. Lets be brutally honest, when England won the Ashes in 2010/11 away, the core of the batting was built around South African born players. In the era that followed this great success, Kolpak became a dirty word and the ECB, not wanting to acknowledge the foundation of national team batting success was built on this supply of labour, tried its best to outlaw these players by making it as hard as possible for them not to come. And in the era that followed the two most exciting batting prospects, Robson and Compton (both who had to spend timee qualifying for England as they were Australian and SA respectively), were given unfair treatment. It didnt serve the ECBs narrative at the time for these players to develop. What happens when you stop great professionals playing with local talent, and replace them with token English players not up to standard? You get a decline. Its noticeable, but the ECB have to own the decision because they chose that decline.

This all operates also in parallel to Downton and Flower's player pathway nonsense. The development system was designed at a fundamental level to take the cream of the youth talent and turn them into cricketers for the top. It was written and operated to totally ignore CC performance, because the bodies at the ECB simply had no trust in this being a mark for anything. Flower trusted his own instinct over anything; we were served pseudo-scientific nonsense like data, subjective observations, education levels and other criteria as being superior to runs in the middle. A whole generation of CC players and youngsters not included in the scheme from the outset were basically told their career meant nothing.

So we get to where we are now. Its no fluke, its no accident. I invite you to view my historical posts, its exactly what I have been banging on and predicting would happen when times were better, and got shelled for it routinely as being negative or just trolling. Flower destroyed the English game in the last ten years on his vanity project.

I can give no better example than Liam Livingstone's treatment in the past. In 2016, he came into the CC and averaged over 50 in his debut year. He got picked for the Lions and bashed 2 back to back 100s in the games he played in. Whitaker said he was the best prospect in the English game. He backed up that with an average of 49 in 2017 in the CC season.

Who did England pick? Tom Westley, who had barely justified getting games at Essex for much of his career. Vince, who's county form had plummeted long term, who had been outclassed in his test career so far, and who had a Lions tour where he scored 17 runs in 6 innings. David Malan, who averaged 10-15 runs less than Livingstone in the same competition.

Skip a couple of years later, and people will ask why Livingstone faded away. Just not good enough right? Well, what do you expect? England were bowled out for 58 in NZ, and a guy averaging 50 in FC and a solid prospect just gets overlooked for a load of duffers and failures. Of course hes going to lose motivation.

There are loads of these types of examples. Why did Westley get picked over Livngstone? Well, Flower's pathway nonsense has loads on education level proving a playeers worth.... one went to Durham, the other wasnt University educated. This is what we have come to in the later 2010s

Livingstone averages over 40 still in his career. How can he not get a game in this team?

[Arthur Crabtree]

When Archer came along the ECB slackened its criteria to rush him through. The ECB doesn't even have the conviction of its own prejudices. They changed their rules initially because they resented their need for Pietersen (who don't forget had a UK passport), and plenty of the more parochial voices around the game (including fans) didn't want him in their England team.

But England always find a way to make an exception for the right person.

[sussexpob]

When Archer came along the ECB slackened its criteria to rush him through. The ECB doesn't even have the conviction of its own prejudices. They changed their rules initially because they resented their need for Pietersen (who don't forget had a UK passport), and plenty of the more parochial voices around the game (including fans) didn't want him in their England team. But England always find a way to make an exception for the right person.

Good post.

It is this isnt it? I mean, when you look at Archer's treatment compared to someone like Steve Harmer, there is a clear difference. Harmer came out recently to say that Alan Fordham at the ECB even rejected his plea for help to secure a more permanent visa so he could continue in CC and his life in the UK with a bit more certainty. Now, he has made it clear that he would consider going back to SA and playing in internationals again. Whatever your opinion is on him representing England, after the Indian spinners set us on fire, there is simply no argument that the best spinner in the English game being forced out the scene is anything but detrimental to the quality of the game, and not facing him is a big loss to those batsman being challenged and facing the best available players.

The ECB have made a rigid system that is followed to the letter for some, and for others is totally ignored. It makes a mockery of everything because in the end its just all based on subjectivity, and that subjectivity itself is often pinned to the ideas, projects or ego of whoever invited it, and not any practical marker.

[sussexpob]

Transparency in selection criteria motivates players. If every player knows runs or wickets means something, you'd have a different system. I think if I were a player in the CC, I really wouldnt know what is required. You score runs in consecutive seasons in Div 2, you get told it means nothing... then one year later someone averaging 20 runs less in their career gets selected on one year of good form in Div2. You get told data is more important than the runs you score, but then get ignored because a selector decides data is not the be all and end all. You get told you have to focus on the 4 day game, then dont get picked when the selector goes with someone who has retired from the 4 day game. You need to score runs for the Lions, but get overlooked by someone who averaged as many runs as you had centuries on the same tour. You get told form is everything, then get dropped for someone averaging 30 with the bat for a year. You average 100 the next year, but get dropped because the longer term means more. You average 40 over the next 4 years, then get dropped for someone averaging 29 who has hit a 4 game good patch. You get told by the press pitches need to spin to help you, then get told the wickets you took meant nothing because the wicket assisted you. You get told you dont have the attitude or maturity, while players younger than you, or ones with discipline issues in the past, get continually picked.

And so on, and so on. The funniest ever trick the ECB pulled was to drop Taylor after 2 games with a FC average of 60 claiming his attitude stunk and he had caused dressing room issues with his personality, only to re-engineer the situation 18 months later to claim he was the victim of KPs bullying and had dealt with the situation like a perfect gentleman; while releasing videos of his team-mates bullying him and forcing him to dance around with a midget bat and uniform as an example of his fautless integration, in an era when suggestions of bullying were rife in the team.

If these people run professional projects like this in the real world, theyd be sacked after 2 days.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Great start for England today. Only one spinner though, and he's opening the bowling. Feels like a mistake that's been made before. Five pace bowlers!

[Arthur Crabtree]

It's not on C4.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Given the spinners India have available, I'd guess they have enough runs just about.

England not even giving Rashid all his overs.

[Red Devil]

Given the spinners India have available, I'd guess they have enough runs just about.

Shocker from India no-one did anything apart from Shreyas! The dew will come in and negate the spinners so I'm expecting Eng to rattle these runs off very comfortably