England Versus India - 1st Test (9 Nov - 13 Nov)

[backfootpunch]

Time for joe root to show he can score heavily outside of England

We will need him to at least double his tally of away hundreds

[meninblue]

Time for joe root to show he can score heavily outside of England

We will need him to at least double his tally of away hundreds

Not required

[shankycricket]

Time for joe root to show he can score heavily outside of England

We will need him to at least double his tally of away hundreds

I think he will. That innings in Jo'burg was a real turning point. A near run a ball hundred on a dicey wicket where the next highest score in the match was 57 (which was the only other 50 in that match). I think he can do something similar on a turner.

[shankycricket]

Lot of injured players for first few tests

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-eng ... 64385.html

can't believe Pandya is in line for a test match ... looks like we will do our best to make sure Eng have a good chance

Those injuries could be costly - would be ok if at least Rahul was fit, so maybe Nair has to come in based on this squad

my side if they get the pitch right would be Vijay, Gambhir, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Nair, Ashwin, Saha, Jadeja, Mishra, Shami

I'm not sure why you are against Pandya considering you were so desperate to get a seam bowling allrounder that you wanted a gun barrel straight trundler like Rishi Dhawan in.

[Red Devil]

Lot of injured players for first few tests

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-eng ... 64385.html

can't believe Pandya is in line for a test match ... looks like we will do our best to make sure Eng have a good chance

Those injuries could be costly - would be ok if at least Rahul was fit, so maybe Nair has to come in based on this squad

my side if they get the pitch right would be Vijay, Gambhir, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Nair, Ashwin, Saha, Jadeja, Mishra, Shami

I'm not sure why you are against Pandya considering you were so desperate to get a seam bowling allrounder that you wanted a gun barrel straight trundler like Rishi Dhawan in.

first class records of indian seam bowling all-rounders ...

rishsi dhawan - aged 26 - 55 matches - 2350 runs at 40.5 + 236 wickets at 25.5

hardik pandya - aged 23 - 16 matches - 700 runs at 28 + 22 wickets at 34

stuart binny - aged 32 - 73 matches and 3750 runs at 35.5 + 115 wickets at 32.5

I think it's pretty clear who should have had some chances to prove themselves at least in India 'A' tests in overseas conditions. Those stats suggest that Pandya has shown so far that he can't bat or bowl really in the longer form of the game. Unless the selectors have seen some serious improvements it doesn't bode well.

[meninblue]

Lot of injured players for first few tests

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-eng ... 64385.html

can't believe Pandya is in line for a test match ... looks like we will do our best to make sure Eng have a good chance

Those injuries could be costly - would be ok if at least Rahul was fit, so maybe Nair has to come in based on this squad

my side if they get the pitch right would be Vijay, Gambhir, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Nair, Ashwin, Saha, Jadeja, Mishra, Shami

I'm not sure why you are against Pandya considering you were so desperate to get a seam bowling allrounder that you wanted a gun barrel straight trundler like Rishi Dhawan in.

first class records of indian seam bowling all-rounders ...

rishsi dhawan - aged 26 - 55 matches - 2350 runs at 40.5 + 236 wickets at 25.5

hardik pandya - aged 23 - 16 matches - 700 runs at 28 + 22 wickets at 34

stuart binny - aged 32 - 73 matches and 3750 runs at 35.5 + 115 wickets at 32.5

I think it's pretty clear who should have had some chances to prove themselves at least in India 'A' tests in overseas conditions. Those stats suggest that Pandya has shown so far that he can't bat or bowl really in the longer form of the game. Unless the selectors have seen some serious improvements it doesn't bode well.

I think Hardik's fielding gives him advantage over Rishi. Also Hardik has much better pace than Rishi in bowling.

[andy]

stunned that Pandya is getting a test call up..always been a fan of Dhawan, and think he should get a go in tests first...

[sussexpob]

Obviously England fans and press alike are fearing the ball turning at right angles, but I would probably suggest that India's series vs South Africa and New Zealand in recent times has greatly overstated the role of the pitch in these results. Nagpur had a few huge turning deliveries (Vilar got one that was unplayable by memory, and ABDV got one that turned a mile) for South Africa, but the rest by memory were either pitches that had turn, but not excessive turn, and even at one venue (Bangalore?) the pitch seamed to suit pace bowlers more.

In the last test, using that as an example because its recent, Ashwin took 13 wickets and everyone who clearly wasnt watching the actual game was speaking about huge degrees of turn. The spinners had some help as the ball would grip a little, but I challenge anyone to tell me the Kiwi's gave 13 wickets to Ashwin through some unspeakable pitch demons. The tailenders (Boult twice, and Henry in the second) tried to slog him wildly and got out, the top order all got out to either playing ridiculous shots against the spin and across the line of the ball, or failed to read Ashwin's variation balls. None of the wickets turned that much.

I think the biggest example was Kane Williamson, one of the (apparent) world class batsman in the world who got out trying to cut a ball landing on his offstump and spinning in at knee height to middle. This sort of bizarre stroke seems to occur a lot in India. Had he blocked straight, the ball was inocuous. Its pretty simple. Dont play shots across the line or against the spin. Any coach will tell you that at 5 years old. But South Africa and New Zealand series is littered with example of players regularly ignoring this in India, and getting out.

One series problem need to overcome is reading the variation. As stated above, Ashwin has two excellent ones he uses (a) The natural flighted straight ball that either goes with the arm or turns very slightly (b) the unflighted, quicker ball that comes in lower and doesnt bounce. I think this is where England really need to improve quickly, I have witnessed a lot of the current or likely team get out to spin recently, and Id say a huge proportion of those wickets are to variation balls...... against inferior spinners.

England just need to play proper cricket, bat with the established fundamentals. If you pick from the hand, and exercise good shot selection, I dont think that India's spin attack are going to rip you out with magic balls on pitches sent from spin heaven. Contrary to belief, this is not what they have been doing.

[Dr Cricket]

Good post, one current theme throughout the last few years in india is that this is what a typical turning pitch in india was and that it wasn't so different to the days bedi etc bowled or what you get in domestic cricket in india.

Although most times the batsman or the opposition lost during the first session when they see the ball turning massively.

the NZ pitches isn't that different to what india gave england in 2012 and majority of Ashwin games have been played on those type of pitches.
interesting point though since WI and NZ in particular struggled with ashwin in 2011, 2012 tours to india and that was when he bowled more variation, really that was what made him bowl more variation against England because that what worked in the past, but when Cook and most of the English batsman were able to pick his variation and survive against them it made him less effective and lose his accuracy.

Although you did miss out a point on the field setting, NZ got choked massively by the field setting considering india had 8-2 or 9-1 fields and Williamson and co couldn't even get a single without taking a risk.
basically Williamson could only get a single if he played a risky cut shot, if they played straight all the time nz wouldn't score anything.
Really think England would get destroyed more by the field setting than the actual pitch or bowling.

[sussexpob]

Although most times the batsman or the opposition lost during the first session when they see the ball turning massively

Well I might be wrong, but in the first test South Africa lost at Mohali, everyone was talking about the pitch being a day 5 pitch, dry, etc..... but I am pretty sure IIRC that the South African top three all got out misjudging the flight of the ball in the air, and were out with no stroke offered to balls that did nothing. They were something like 20/3, and collapsed in a heap they never recovered from.

Although you did miss out a point on the field setting, NZ got choked massively by the field setting considering india had 8-2 or 9-1 fields and Williamson and co couldn't even get a single without taking a risk.
basically Williamson could only get a single if he played a risky cut shot, if they played straight all the time nz wouldn't score anything.

It seems a modern trend that most cricketers seem unable to have a basic game for working the ball into low risk areas. The way that Ashwin bowls, right handers should be able to stand tall and milk him off the legs for low risk shots. In fact, IIRC again, Williamson in the second innings of the match I used earlier as an example began to do that, but then India put three man in short on the leg side to give the shot risk, and he ended up in half way housegetting out lbw after not committing to a similar shot with the fielders in his mind. I thought at the time, thats really good cricket from Ashwin and Kohli, give him a risky single and tempt him into it, dont put the ball anywhere else to score.

I do think too many people undersstimate Jadeja and Ashwin as simply home track bullies who thrive on bunsens. Both are actually very intelligent bowlers who can strangle batsman into making mistakes.

interesting point though since WI and NZ in particular struggled with ashwin in 2011, 2012 tours to india and that was when he bowled more variation, really that was what made him bowl more variation against india because that what worked in the past, but when Cook and most of the English batsman were able to pick his variation and survive against them it made him less effective and lose his accuracy.

England dont have the same level of team this time. There is countless examples of the new batsman since that last series not picking variation from the spinner.

[meninblue]

Good post, one current theme throughout the last few years in india is that this is what a typical turning pitch in india was and that it wasn't so different to the days bedi etc bowled or what you get in domestic cricket in india.

Although most times the batsman or the opposition lost during the first session when they see the ball turning massively.

the NZ pitches isn't that different to what india gave england in 2012 and majority of Ashwin games have been played on those type of pitches.
interesting point though since WI and NZ in particular struggled with ashwin in 2011, 2012 tours to india and that was when he bowled more variation, really that was what made him bowl more variation against England because that what worked in the past, but when Cook and most of the English batsman were able to pick his variation and survive against them it made him less effective and lose his accuracy.

Although you did miss out a point on the field setting, NZ got choked massively by the field setting considering india had 8-2 or 9-1 fields and Williamson and co couldn't even get a single without taking a risk.
basically Williamson could only get a single if he played a risky cut shot, if they played straight all the time nz wouldn't score anything.
Really think England would get destroyed more by the field setting than the actual pitch or bowling.

The wickets on which England played test series in India were totally different to what were offered in NZL. There was lot of uneven bounce. Dhoni collected some deliveries at his chest level off spinners. Jadeja was getting prodigious turn as well. Swann and Monty too hit the top of the bats.

[shankycricket]

stunned that Pandya is getting a test call up..always been a fan of Dhawan, and think he should get a go in tests first...

Where have you seen him play to be a "fan" of Rishi Dhawan?

[Dr Cricket]

Only mumbai did that adi.
Nagpur was a slow/low wicket where run scoring was hard and taking wicket was hard.
Kolkata didn't really bounce or turn much, actually remember the game reverse swinging more
Ahmedabad was slow and low as well and if anything was a surprise england collapsed easily on that game.

Really only one game actually turned or bounce more considering English spinners didn't do much in Ahmadabad and Nagpur, then Anderson and Finn were the most threatening in Kolkata although Monty took some crucial wickets as well.

[shankycricket]

NZ pitches weren't really spin friendly apart from Kanpur and even that was nothing like Nagpur or Mohali last year or even Mumbai in 2012 or the pitch Australia played on at Delhi in 2013. Kolkata was a seamer's track. BCCI seamers took 12 out of the 20 wickets, Indore was just flat. NZ combusted under scoreboard pressure. There was hardly any turn. The pitches in SL for the Aus series recently or BD vs Eng were more spin friendly than the ones BCCI had for NZ.

[Dr Cricket]

stunned that Pandya is getting a test call up..always been a fan of Dhawan, and think he should get a go in tests first...

Where have you seen him play to be a "fan" of Rishi Dhawan?

Not sure pandya a bad call up anyway considering if the ball doing all sorts for the spinner, then having a second pace option that can bat is a good idea, plus india needs a pace bowling all rounder abroad and Pandya is the most likely man for the role.

Anyway not sure what the fuss is about considering pandya only got a 10% chance of playing, nair about 30% and Mishra 60%
think Rohit will either get replaced by Nair or Mishra.
Pandya is an option if Ishant, Yadav not required and they need an extra batsman that can bowl seam up.

Not really sure what the hate with pandya is anyway considering as a bowler he bowls good pace and get the ball moving which the other pace all rounders can't do and as a batsman he looked ok when I seen him bat.

anyway they probably called pandya up considering it is 99% likely he will play a test next away season and guaranteed to tour fitness permitting.
Pandya very likely to replace jadeja in the team and so they probably using this opportunity to see how he goes in the nets and see if his bowling or batting good enough for this level.