Cricket-Match-Special ... A forum for discussion

sussexpob wrote:One only has to look at Adam Voges and Usman Khawaja's recent records to justify what pitches these statistics are being taken from.

While this is true, you've also got to take into account what other players have, and haven't, achieved on the same pitches.

Also, remember that a lot of vaunted, quality Australian players struggled against a quality attack on pitches with some spice.

Thirdly, remember you are getting on ("everything were better in my day....")



Certainly not dscounting what you say, just ameliorating it a little. Of course Voges stats need to be taken with a tablespoon of salt, 2 series against Windies and NZ don't make up a career. If it were to finish soon, his career would be a statistical anomoly. The fact that these players have these stats need to be given some credit though.

I dont think this is a "everything is better in my day" speech. I want to see competitive and close cricket, but at the moment most teams contain so many poor players across the board that you cant take performances seriously. I think what you find is that decent players simply destroy the widespread dross and are made to look brilliant. But put these same players in tough conditions and they melt like a chocolate fireguard.

England are an average team. Ten years ago considering beating Australia with a team in an Ashes series that contained one established opener (who was out of form), a part time keeper, two batsman in the top 6 averaging under 30, a spinner who wasnt even a top 4 bowler option at a county team, and only really two established seamers, you would have laughed. But this team beat Australia, even rather embarrassed them in two tests..... and then the winter after this same Australia team hits the top of the world rankings? Its a joke really. The South Africa team England beat this winter was by far the worst I have seen since 1991, the win didnt even feel noticeable, like it was earned.

I mean lets take McCullum's 145. How many times should he have been out in that innings? It was an exhibition of terrible cricket, the equivalent of seeing a football side hit the post 30 times then conceed an own goal from a backpass and lose 1-0. There wasnt any skill or technique on show, just someone slogging everything and getting lucky.

Arthur Crabtree wrote:NZ little rating spike seems to be over

Now sixth.

Regarding the Aussie ranking, while trying to get to sleep last night I compiled a World XI based on recent form, and got:

Vijay/Warner/Khawaja/Smith/Voges/Sarfraz/Ashwin/Broad/Rabada/Yasir/Hazlewood.

Which is half the side. And Lyon is probably peaking as well.

No Root?

sussexpob wrote:One only has to look at Adam Voges and Usman Khawaja's recent records to justify what pitches these statistics are being taken from.

Khawaja was outclassed in England in 2013. He was also outclassed in a B team game by England the previous Ashes series, and everyone in Australia conceded the boy had no technique.

Adam Voges was taken apart by England in the Ashes and looked like a minor counties player who had accidentally been mistaken for a cricketer..... he averages 95!!!!!!

Playing in 1995, none of these would have made a 5th test match against a decent attack on a spicy pitch.

I do agree, Sussex. Smith and Voges' averages are massively over-inflated by the dross that has been bowled to them this summer, and they look dreadful when the ball actually moves. I just hope for the sake of the Don that Sri Lanka prepare some turners...

To be fair to Khawaja, though, he has clearly improved since 2013.

bigfluffylemon wrote:

sussexpob wrote:One only has to look at Adam Voges and Usman Khawaja's recent records to justify what pitches these statistics are being taken from.

Khawaja was outclassed in England in 2013. He was also outclassed in a B team game by England the previous Ashes series, and everyone in Australia conceded the boy had no technique.

Adam Voges was taken apart by England in the Ashes and looked like a minor counties player who had accidentally been mistaken for a cricketer..... he averages 95!!!!!!

Playing in 1995, none of these would have made a 5th test match against a decent attack on a spicy pitch.

I do agree, Sussex. Smith and Voges' averages are massively over-inflated by the dross that has been bowled to them this summer, and they look dreadful when the ball actually moves. I just hope for the sake of the Don that Sri Lanka prepare some turners...

To be fair to Khawaja, though, he has clearly improved since 2013.

No doubt the Aussie pitches are flat as hell but what do you have to say about Smith clearly outperforming the apparently great Williamson and Root away from home?

sussexpob wrote:

shankycricket wrote:

sussexpob wrote:

shankycricket wrote:By the way, Steven Smith's away average in Test cricket is 54. Thats 5 runs higher than everyone's darling "technically sound" Kane Williamson's OVERALL average and 10 runs higher than Williamson's away average. Guess who is labelled the home track bully?

Probably something to do with the fact he looks rubbish when the ball moves slightly in the air.

Thankfully, cricket is about runs and not a beauty contest.

Its actually about winning, and in recent away loses to Pakistan and India, he didnt score enough runs or a hundred..... and bar the deadest of pitches thrown up in England, he looked very average against good bowling.

In fact, if you look at the Ashes series he has played in, 3 of his 5 hundreds come in dead rubber games with the series already decided. The 4th was scored in the second innings at Perth when any bookie would have given you 2500/1 on England even getting a drawn series. The Lords test was the only live series score he has really made, and that was on a pitch dead as flared jeans and disco.

Cricket is played outside the Ashes too.

And please remember that you worship a bloke averaging 13 in England with 0 fifties in 10 innings as the best thing to ever happen to the universe before knocking down anyone for struggling against the moving ball.

shankycricket wrote:No doubt the Aussie pitches are flat as hell but what do you have to say about Smith clearly outperforming the apparently great Williamson and Root away from home?

If you read any of my posts about Kane Williamson, you would know that I am far convinced that he is anything but a decent player taking advantage of smashing some terrible attacks around. And Root's record away is only based on 15 odd matches because England didnt tour because of the last world cup in 2014..... since he had a few bad months in Australia as part of the Ashes disaster, he has averaged 55, 57 and over 90 in the away tours he has played. In recent times his performance is ridiculous, but I dont believe he is that special a player in the context to those I have seen.

shankycricket wrote: And please remember that you worship a bloke averaging 13 in England with 0 fifties in 10 innings as the best thing to ever happen to the universe before knocking down anyone for struggling against the moving ball.

If you are referring to Kohli, I am not sure the context of me claiming he is "the best thing to ever happen to the universe" was ever in reference to test cricket. I am pretty sure you will find I said recently he was by a mile the best limited overs player ever.

Kohli is a perfect example. Since the initial few matches he struggled in his has maintained a plus 50 average. A player so flawed in many ways for test cricket would never had averaged that 20 years or even 10 years ago.

The perfect innings I can think of was that 250 not out that Kane Williamson scored against Sri Lanka. Herath injured himself in the first innings and was unable to bowl, and then ended up being forced to bowl 50 odd overs of pure dross clearly struggling because Sri Lanka's pace attack of three men averaging over 50 looked incapable of bowling out a 11 man team made up of Courtney Walsh's.

So he scored all those runs on a dead pitch against an attack that would struggle in Division two of the county championship. Id probably suggest that any 50 scored at Galle before the Tsunami with Murali tearing in bowling with rip, dip and turn is superior to any 250 not out scored in that situation.

Rubbish pitches and rubbish attacks. This only serves to inflate averages and make people think average players are amazing.

bigfluffylemon wrote:

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Vijay/Warner/Khawaja/Smith/Voges/Sarfraz/Ashwin/Broad/Rabada/Yasir/Hazlewood.

Which is half the side. And Lyon is probably peaking as well.

No Root?

Not against these Aussies on recent form, Root has never scored as prodigiously, and not against these opponents. I expect over time he and Williamson will be in. If I was picking a world XI rather than a form XI, some of these haven't done enough to be in.

sussexpob wrote:

shankycricket wrote: And please remember that you worship a bloke averaging 13 in England with 0 fifties in 10 innings as the best thing to ever happen to the universe before knocking down anyone for struggling against the moving ball.

If you are referring to Kohli, I am not sure the context of me claiming he is "the best thing to ever happen to the universe" was ever in reference to test cricket. I am pretty sure you will find I said recently he was by a mile the best limited overs player ever.

Kohli is a perfect example. Since the initial few matches he struggled in his has maintained a plus 50 average. A player so flawed in many ways for test cricket would never had averaged that 20 years or even 10 years ago.

Fair enough then. I thought you were just singling out Smith. I agree that in general, this is a bit of a weak era. But we have to remember that players are a product of their era. They might not have played this way had they played 20 years ago. Is it really the players' fault that they have been brought up in the era of T20 with big bats, flatter pitches and shorter boundaries? Would they have had the same techniques had they played in the 90s? Thats why it is best to compare them with their peers than past greats.

Would Pete Sampras have been such an out and out serve and volleyer had he played in this era of slower homogenized courts? Wouldn't Rafa Nadal have served bigger and played more aggressively had he played in the 90s?


By the way, Kohli averages 45 in tests, not 50+.

shankycricket wrote: By the way, Kohli averages 45 in tests, not 50+.

As I said, "Since the initial few matches he struggled in". I believe since his first test hundred in Australia he averages about 49 or 50.

Fair enough then. I thought you were just singling out Smith.

No. I added the fact that England's win in South Africa felt less meaningful that previously because it was against such a poor South Africa side. I dont limit this to Australia but they are clearly the biggest example. I dont think people like Khawaja have got that much better, I just think the opposition has got much worse.

Pitches in Australia have been getting a lot worse since England last won an Ashes there. 2012 was the noticeable start, Ponting was utterly finished and had gone two years without a hundred, then on those rubbish pitches against a pretty poor attack he plundered 134, 221*, 62, 61 and 60* in six innings. Noticeably he then instantly declined and was taken apart in South Africa and against a poor West Indies side after.

Clarke was probably the biggest example. His last five home series registered averages of 67.5, 40.3, 79,144 and 125.5 ..... away from home 16.5, 39.5, 14, 55, 47.... his highest average was 2013 in England where his tour was dominated by that one innings in Manchester where he scored over 200 runs with one out. At Lords, Durham, The Oval and Trent Bridge he was very poor.

In fact, it seemed in 2013 that England were going to get some ultra beast turn up, yet it was confusing in that series how this man had been bettering Bradman the previous winter, yet he looked so technically poor. And this wasnt really on pitches that showed great movement either, Clarke looked like a player who didnt have that great technique. He was bounced out a lot and couldnt cope, I think Swann gave him a real hard time too.

For me its examples of how easy some recent Australia summers have been for home batsman. Clarke looked unstoppable on those flat decks in 2012, but on normal pitches he looked terrible.

Take a good but not great batsman against an average test attack circa 2016 on a dead-flat pitch.... you get Bradman scores. Put them on a normal pitch that isnt a pancake, and they fall apart.

Bah Humbug, no test cricket for ages.

Toby F wrote:Bah Humbug, no test cricket for ages.

Yep, the T20 glut begins - reckon we have about 3 months of it coming up?

Red Devil wrote:

Toby F wrote:Bah Humbug, no test cricket for ages.

Yep, the T20 glut begins - reckon we have about 3 months of it coming up?

Hi Red. Not much happening before the start of the English summer I don't think. I'll have to concentrate on work instead of sitting up late.