The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby sussexpob » Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:29 am

alfie wrote:Yuppie is suggesting "any regular player" would see no problem with it . Bit sweeping , eh ? I've played for over fifty years and I would neither accept it from one of my team nor approve of it from another. Others may well differ and that's fair enough. But let's not pretend there is a black and white answer, please


Dare I suggest that differences in age might have a real effect on what we consider normal here? I started watching cricket around the time of the dirt in the pocket scandal in my early teens, so I never grew up with any pretence that cricket was a nice and fluffy, gentlemanly thing. And I really remember by the time Adam Gilchrist came into the Aussie team (1996?) that he was famous for being pretty much the only guy left in cricket that would walk if he hit it, or would take a fielder's word on a catch not being grounded. I can't remember if Gilchrist maintained that throughout his career, but to begin with his was "the last of the walkers". And then a few years later, Waugh introduced his "mental disintegration tactics".

For me, the default setting has always been teams playing to win at all cost. I would argue that is "normal". Maybe to someone from another era who has been round long enough to remember when it wasnt the case, would consider it abnormal.

As I said when Smith got caught cheating, I didn't really understand the outpouring over it. It seems tough for many people to acknowledge that a side, any side, irrespective of where they are from, would do everything to win. Of course when people cheat they should be punished, but I think cheating is a realistic result of the pressures of modern sport. Nowadays there is a lot of money and status on the line, so while there is a difference between playing hard and being aggressive or out of line, I certainly wouldn't question that winning at all costs is against the spirit of the game - One could argue that such a mentality is the central tenant of competition. Seeing two sides doing everything they can to beat each other. That's what's special about test cricket.

I for one have an acute respect for that in Australian sporting culture. As I have said recently, and several times in the past, Australian's have an inbuilt determination and quality under pressure that I think is far superior to other sides, there is a streak of ultra-competitiveness that seems inherent. England fired some light salvos at Australia after the first test, Australia responded by giving England a lesson in the fine margins of winning, and reminding them they aren't here for hugs and to be friends.

You are free to disagree Alfie, but in my opinion that is the spirit of test cricket - asking for nothing, giving nothing. Outfoxing your opponent and punishing their errors. Of course, there are limits. I am not saying that condoning everything. I like to see players shake hands at the end, and share a beer, leave everything on the field - but on the field, the rules govern what is fair.
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby alfie » Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:15 am

Yeah won't disagree with any of that , Sussex. You are probably right about different eras. As I say , every one is free to have their own opinion on this. I just think it is a pity that a rather unnecessary (although undoubtedly smart) action has overshadowed what has been a very exciting contest . Though if it makes the teams a bit less friendly over the remaining games , may be no bad thing for the action.

If I ever have to play against you I will be aware to watch out for mankads and tricky stumpings :)
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:34 am

sussexpob wrote:For me, the default setting has always been teams playing to win at all cost. I would argue that is "normal". Maybe to someone from another era who has been round long enough to remember when it wasnt the case, would consider it abnormal.


I don't think it's possible to claim that win at all costs is what happens though. Players think and say they operate withing the spirit of the game. Mankads are rare. Incidents like this are rare. An emormous amount of time has been spent trying to justify this incident within the spirit of the game, by people in all sectors of the game. So it matters.

Australia seemed to have a national sporting catharsis over the sandpaper scandal. It wasn't accepted as a lefthanded, pragmatic practice that was unfortunately found out. They publically pledged to change.

I'm not trying to equate this week's incident with ball tampering. Just using it to show that the means of winning still matters. At least in terms of the public gaze and self identity.
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:38 am

sussexpob wrote:You are free to disagree Alfie, but in my opinion that is the spirit of test cricket - asking for nothing, giving nothing. Outfoxing your opponent and punishing their errors. Of course, there are limits. I am not saying that condoning everything. I like to see players shake hands at the end, and share a beer, leave everything on the field - but on the field, the rules govern what is fair.


I think a game without values will become unwatchable. I don't even accept that younger people don't value sportsmanship. Or value it less than older people. They certainly think they do. Cummins didn't say 'up yours' and I doubt he thought it. He tried to justify himself within the spirit of the game.
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby andy » Tue Jul 04, 2023 12:05 pm

Ollie pope is out for the whole summer he requires surgery on dislocated shoulder!
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby yuppie » Tue Jul 04, 2023 12:19 pm

Foakes in then
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Jul 04, 2023 12:23 pm

Lawrence is the spare batter in the squad.

BBC speculate moving everyone up one, and putting Mo in at seven, but that feels unlikely, even if they bring in Woakes, as they suggest, for one of the bowlers.
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby andy » Tue Jul 04, 2023 12:23 pm

yuppie wrote:Foakes in then



Nope. Looks like Dan Lawrence is getting the call up
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby yuppie » Tue Jul 04, 2023 12:29 pm

Such a shame, here was the perfect opportunity to fix a glaring problem.
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby Slipstream » Tue Jul 04, 2023 1:09 pm

So they need to call up a reserve batsman? Could that be Foakes?
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby andy » Tue Jul 04, 2023 1:26 pm

Slipstream wrote:So they need to call up a reserve batsman? Could that be Foakes?


I just posted....Dan Lawrence has been called up
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Jul 04, 2023 1:30 pm

Wasn't he already in the squad?

I guess Slipstream means they'll call up someone in case a batter slips on the soap on the morning of the game.
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue Jul 04, 2023 1:50 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:What I have noticed in all the endless discussions everywhere concerning how to play both YJB and Foakes is that Pope's name never seems to get mentioned. Why does Ollie Pope get a free ride on this? I get it with Root and Brook... one averages 50+ and will one day become the leading run scorer in test cricket and the other is perhaps the most exciting batting talent that England have unearthed arguably since Stokes. Pope averages 35 after 37 tests.... and he's another wicketkeeper. Far less disruptive to move Root and Brook up one place than try to manufacture something for the specialist position of opener

As yuppie says, the perfect opportunity to fix a glaring problem.

let's hope someone has the sense to look a gift horse in the mouth
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby sussexpob » Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:35 pm

alfie wrote: If I ever have to play against you I will be aware to watch out for mankads


I don't really compute why Mankad's are controversial. The batsman is attempting to get a head-start on a run, which is cheating. Why would it be against the spirit of the game to defend against someone trying to cheat against you? If you don't want to be a victim of it, stay in your crease. Simple....

If I were the coach of a side, I'd have my team doing it at every opportunity. All out Mankad.... no problems.
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Re: The Ashes: Australia in England 16th Jun - 31 July

Postby sussexpob » Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:54 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote: I think a game without values will become unwatchable.


The game sets an objective moral standard of behaviour of all players in the code of conduct, so its not a case of believing winning comes at the cost of everything. I expect players to still behave as the laws of the game require, including the annexed code of conduct. If such a behaviour is green lighted by the rules, and not part of the exhaustive (and vague) list of criteria governing how players must conduct themselves, it feels natural for me to conclude anything else is fair game.
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