India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

[Arthur Crabtree]

Pant makes highest score for an Indian keeper in Australia...

[alfie]

To me, these batting selections make it absolutely clear that Smith, Warner and probably Bancroft too will be straight back in the team, and the puzzling shuffling is because the selectors don't care about development or consistency, they're just trying to keep seats warm.

I agree Renshaw should probably have been more seriously considered, but he made it hard for the selectors to justify picking him after an abysmal run in the early season shield matches.

Last chance saloon for Australia today for the series. India can bat or bowl them out of the series, or both.

Can't really believe that ,BFL. Think they are genuinely scratching for realistic long term Test bats at the moment (effect of too much bash ball cricket ?) and hoping to (a) unearth someone who is worth keeping while (b) putting together a lineup that isn't total rubbish...
Think it is fair to say their judgement hasn't been rewarded : but one wonders if our alternates would do any better ?

Yes Smith will be back ; and Warner , although they would probably prefer he didn't . Not so sure about Bancroft , who strikes me as just another fringe candidate.

No current Shield games doesn't help...

[alfie]

At 621/6 and no signs of a closure this match is turning into one of those "only interesting to stats fanatics" games...

And as I type Out goes Pant ...and Kohli calls them in

Actually Jadeja was the one who fell...a good 81.

Postscript is that now Pant , following his fine batting , has dropped a sitter from Khawaja in the third over of Australia's innings...on a flat pitch , that hurts the bowler...

[bigfluffylemon]

To me, these batting selections make it absolutely clear that Smith, Warner and probably Bancroft too will be straight back in the team, and the puzzling shuffling is because the selectors don't care about development or consistency, they're just trying to keep seats warm.

I agree Renshaw should probably have been more seriously considered, but he made it hard for the selectors to justify picking him after an abysmal run in the early season shield matches.

Last chance saloon for Australia today for the series. India can bat or bowl them out of the series, or both.

Can't really believe that ,BFL. Think they are genuinely scratching for realistic long term Test bats at the moment (effect of too much bash ball cricket ?) and hoping to (a) unearth someone who is worth keeping while (b) putting together a lineup that isn't total rubbish...
Think it is fair to say their judgement hasn't been rewarded : but one wonders if our alternates would do any better ?

It's not so much the merits of alternatives, as the complete lack of consistency or an apparent plan, as others have pointed out upthread? Why does M Marsh come back for one test and then get booted again? Why is Handscomb out then in (he hasn't got any better at test batting in a week, despite a couple of good BBL knocks)? Why was Finch picked out of position?

To me it smacks of panic, frankly.

As for the match itself, I guess we'll see. The pitch is obviously flat, but Australia will be demoralised, and it's funny what scoreboard pressure, tiredness and a couple of early wickets can do. I favour India for a win here, but regardless of whether they do or whether it's a bore draw, India won't care much. Australia can't win from here without batting for nearly two days themselves and skittling India in the third innings for under 100. Neither seems likely. Both is going to be next to impossible.

[yuppie]

Well that score certainly helps my first hangover of the new year........going to be a long day

[sussexpob]

I think people are being a bit harsh on the Australian bowlers. Before Melbourne Indias highest score in 4 innings was 307 and so far they have the 2 lowest scores in the series.

Cricinfo posted an article with Stats suggesting that Starc averages 43 since the ball tampering affair, Hazlewood 37-38 (can remember the exact one), Siddle went for 56 a wicket in Pakistan, Chad Sayers averaged took 2/150 odd in his only game, and Pat Cummins save for his Melbourne 2nd innings heroics has only taken apparently 7 other wickets in 6 innings (Average overall 28). The top three are all comfortably above their normal career rates, the new ball partnership my some distance. This despite more helpful bowling conditions than normal, in a year where all pace attacks around the world are flattening batsman with regularity.

The Indian line up in England made 350 once in 5 tests, and that was at a point were England went to declaration bowling as India had a lead of 500 plus. They failed to make 200 in 5 innings. They were blown away and looked incapable.

Here, they have made 300, 448 declared and 660 declared in 3 of the 4 first innings of the series. When they didnt make a decent start, I think it was Lyon who did the damage.

We can agree disagree, but I think the bowlers have not done well enough this series to avoid criticism. The reasons why are there simply for debate, there is no obvious proof that this is linked to the condition of the ball in previous years, but should this trend continue for another 12 months, then I think history will make its own mind up on it.

I certainly have my suspicions. Starc particularly looks really lame this series. And apparently he is bowling the quickest average pace in these matches hes ever been clocked at, so its not a question of fitness or effort. Maybe too much effort?

[sussexpob]

Also, Indian batsmen do love Sydney. 6 of the top 10 highest scores by Indians in Australia, including two of the three double hundreds, have taken place here.

One of the best innings I remember is VVS Laxman's 170 odd here in the Millennium test. Hed gone nearly 20 tests without a 100, and his career was probably already dead had Sadagopan Ramesh not had his arm shattered by Brett Lee the test before, giving him a chance to slot in as opener with M Prasad having a disaster. He got pinned by a nasty bouncer in the first few overs, picked himself up and smashed the Aussies around the park as his partners continued to get annihilated by Lee and McGrath on a deck that offered swing the whole way through. Drove to the swinging ball wonderfully, forced the Aussies to go shorter, then punished them with the pull.

I think India only made 250 between them, so in terms of percentage score, it must be right up there. Still remember the great Aussie duo of Lawry and Benaud pondering quite how a player capable of what they were seeing, averaged 23 in 20 tests. They both mused he'd retire a legend.... and they were right.

Ah, to have Bill back in the box. Aussie tests arent the same without him.

[meninblue]

Also, Indian batsmen do love Sydney. 6 of the top 10 highest scores by Indians in Australia, including two of the three double hundreds, have taken place here.

One of the best innings I remember is VVS Laxman's 170 odd here in the Millennium test. Hed gone nearly 20 tests without a 100, and his career was probably already dead had Sadagopan Ramesh not had his arm shattered by Brett Lee the test before, giving him a chance to slot in as opener with M Prasad having a disaster. He got pinned by a nasty bouncer in the first few overs, picked himself up and smashed the Aussies around the park as his partners continued to get annihilated by Lee and McGrath on a deck that offered swing the whole way through. Drove to the swinging ball wonderfully, forced the Aussies to go shorter, then punished them with the pull.

I think India only made 250 between them, so in terms of percentage score, it must be right up there. Still remember the great Aussie duo of Lawry and Benaud pondering quite how a player capable of what they were seeing, averaged 23 in 20 tests. They both mused he'd retire a legend.... and they were right.

Ah, to have Bill back in the box. Aussie tests arent the same without him.

Sadagopan Ramesh was opener. He was one of the best on leg side who timed the ball superbly against the great Pakistan bowling attack of that time (Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain). Having played well with timing and touch on leg side, it was just wow to watch him during his stays at wicket. Technically he was weak though especially his footwork was non existent. Another problem he had was he did not convert starts in big tons. In 19 matches he has just 2 tons. So at domestic as well as internatioanl level he struggled to convert tons. In fact he never got a FC double even in Ranji when they are scored by so many players. Pankaj Dharmani, Vikram Rathour were lot more scucessful FC cricketers than him.

As far as VVS is concerned, under Sachin Tendulkar's short tenure as captain on our tour of WI, Sachin asked VVS to open and VVS flopped. Azhar to had him as opener but it did not work out. He was dropped in 1999 after Pakistan series. Then he played that Ranji Season. From whatever i remember, he scored about 1400 - 1450 runs in 9 matches with 8 hundreds. There was no 50 , all 100's. It still remains the record for most runs in single Ranji Trophy season. Next best iirc is Shreyas Iyer with approx 1300 in 2015 - 2016 for Mumbai team. In 86 editions of ranji trophy this record gains significance. This all time phenomenal record earned him his place back and the rest is history. With the all-time record season he was bound to make way back, especially he had international experience as well as reputation. VVS replaced Devang Gandhi who was also a opener; VVS and S Ramesh batted together in second test. In third test which you mention he was hiding a injury and selectors took action against him for not clarifying fitness issue and providing fitness certificate. MSK Prasad who is India's chief selector now was promoted as MSO + wk (Make shift opener) in the Sydney test which you mention (VVS made 167)

As he did not want to open he was not picked in other series until later in year. Later on in 2000 itself VVS was given his prefered batting position while S Ramesh continued to open. VVS played one of the all time epic knock of 281 . S Ramesh was also part of that test. As Ramesh had problem converting starts he was dropped as opener, whereas VVS had made massive impressions post comeback from Ranji trophy 1999 season. Rahul Dravid was promoted as MSO to replace S Ramesh. In fact sacking S Ramesh was wonderful, because we could then accommodate Sehwag by moving Rahul as MSO and then Sehwag . Few series later Sehwag was promoted as opener and he made that spot his own by making big tons something which S Ramesh, SS Das, MSK Prasad failed to do.

2000 was golden year which established FAB5. VVS came back as stronger cricketer thanks to Ranji Trophy and Sehwag was also found. The FAB 5 batting lineup of Sehwag, Dravid, Sachin, Sourav and VVS went strength to strength since that year.

[meninblue]

VIhari and Rahul smiling watching the top run scorer chart before Virat sees them

[sussexpob]

Sadagopan Ramesh was opener....... Technically he was weak though especially his footwork was non existent. Another problem he had was he did not convert starts in big tons. In 19 matches he has just 2 tons. So at domestic as well as internatioanl level he struggled to convert tons.

To me, this seems like a hindsight narrative. I certainly remember at the time Ramesh was being celebrated as a real find when India went out to Australia, no one was really commenting on his problematic technique, quite the opposite. I remember at the turn of the millennium, Wisden Magazine ran a feature about players who define the 2000s.... I am pretty sure Ramesh was top of that list. I for one think he got Stuart Broad disease. That bouncer Brett Lee hit him with a Melbourne clearly hurt him a lot. It was wicket, near 100 mph, straight into the arm. He averaged 50 at that point in his 10th test, with 9 scores of 50 plus, and 2 hundreds. Which for a young batter having toured Australia and played in a very tough Pakistan series, is more than acceptable. After he recovered (he missed the next series in SA I think), he wasnt the same player.

Getting hit by a nasty ball from the fastest bowler ever, falling apart after.... I dont personally see the two as seperate.

With the all-time record season he was bound to make way back, especially he had international experience as well as reputation......MSK Prasad who is India's chief selector now was promoted as MSO + wk (Make shift opener) in the Sydney test which you mention (VVS made 167)

Prasad surely would have been in as a batsman, because I am sure in this period India still picked Mongia to keep? While you might be right about the Ranji runs keeping him there, it is worth noting that in the same year VVS broke that record, Bharadwaj also broke the previous record. He played in that Sydney test, in fact it might have been the last of a very short 2-3 match stint he got. If record breaking years meant anything, then surely Vijay would have also got a longer run in the team?

How I remember it, very specifically, was VVS was a dead man walking when the team got back home. Ramesh going down maybe saved his test career in the dead rubber game for one game, and in the last innings of the series he played that blinder. If Ramesh was dispatched for only scoring 2 hundreds in 19 tests, while averaaging nearly 40, then VVS going back home with 0 x 100s and an average just over 20 wasnt going to cut it.

Worth noting Wasim Jaffer, who was the next great Mumbai hope off the rank, debuted the following test in South Africa. In terms of Ranji, isnt he the best run scorer of all time? He was massively hyped iirc, so its almost certain had Ramesh been fit with an average of 50, Jaffer would have replaced VVS in the SA series without that score.

Although it is possible he would have batted down the order. India were still picking Ajay Jadeja for tests in the 2000s, and the aforementioned Bharadwaj also flopped. But its unlikely in my eyes. I think that innings saved his career.

[sussexpob]

He wasnt the only great bat that got fortunate in that series. Justin Langer was stone cold dead lbw to Srinath ( I think) in Adelaide after scoring 1, wasnt given..... and he had been given the message by the selectors before the game "its a biggie, or you are done".... he made 199 by memory. Then went to Melbourne and scored 225..... rest is history.

Scratch that... he got the double in Sydney.

[meninblue]

Sadagopan Ramesh was opener....... Technically he was weak though especially his footwork was non existent. Another problem he had was he did not convert starts in big tons. In 19 matches he has just 2 tons. So at domestic as well as internatioanl level he struggled to convert tons.

To me, this seems like a hindsight narrative. I certainly remember at the time Ramesh was being celebrated as a real find when India went out to Australia, no one was really commenting on his problematic technique, quite the opposite. I remember at the turn of the millennium, Wisden Magazine ran a feature about players who define the 2000s.... I am pretty sure Ramesh was top of that list. I for one think he got Stuart Broad disease. That bouncer Brett Lee hit him with a Melbourne clearly hurt him a lot. It was wicket, near 100 mph, straight into the arm. He averaged 50 at that point in his 10th test, with 9 scores of 50 plus, and 2 hundreds. Which for a young batter having toured Australia and played in a very tough Pakistan series, is more than acceptable. After he recovered (he missed the next series in SA I think), he wasnt the same player.

Getting hit by a nasty ball from the fastest bowler ever, falling apart after.... I dont personally see the two as seperate.

With the all-time record season he was bound to make way back, especially he had international experience as well as reputation......MSK Prasad who is India's chief selector now was promoted as MSO + wk (Make shift opener) in the Sydney test which you mention (VVS made 167)

Prasad surely would have been in as a batsman, because I am sure in this period India still picked Mongia to keep? While you might be right about the Ranji runs keeping him there, it is worth noting that in the same year VVS broke that record, Bharadwaj also broke the previous record. He played in that Sydney test, in fact it might have been the last of a very short 2-3 match stint he got. If record breaking years meant anything, then surely Vijay would have also got a longer run in the team?

How I remember it, very specifically, was VVS was a dead man walking when the team got back home. Ramesh going down maybe saved his test career in the dead rubber game for one game, and in the last innings of the series he played that blinder. If Ramesh was dispatched for only scoring 2 hundreds in 19 tests, while averaaging nearly 40, then VVS going back home with 0 x 100s and an average just over 20 wasnt going to cut it.

Worth noting Wasim Jaffer, who was the next great Mumbai hope off the rank, debuted the following test in South Africa. In terms of Ranji, isnt he the best run scorer of all time? He was massively hyped iirc, so its almost certain had Ramesh been fit with an average of 50, Jaffer would have replaced VVS in the SA series without that score.

Although it is possible he would have batted down the order. India were still picking Ajay Jadeja for tests in the 2000s, and the aforementioned Bharadwaj also flopped. But its unlikely in my eyes. I think that innings saved his career.

Well, imo even in his initial matches watching this footwork issue. I agree on the part that he was marvelous as far as timing was concerned, but that was the only positive about his batting. Even when we (me and my local friends) discussed we praised him for timing but observed lack of footwork. There was no hindsight as all these discussions took place within first few tests we watched him. Actually him being selected over domestic bullies was a surprise to me.


Problem is not with the bouncer. He was unfit and doctor did not provide him fitness certificate and there was some talk he provided a fitness certificate. There was some disciplinary issue raised by authorities as he declared himself fit even though he was not.


Nayan Mongia although not a specialist batsman he was better than MSK Prasad imo.


VVS scored 1415 while Bharadwaj scored 1280 in 1999 - 2000 Ranji season after VVS was dropped . Bharadwaj was also a prolific run scorer unlike S Ramesh. Badrinath, Rathour, Pankaj Dharmani, Bharadwaj, Amol Muzumdar, Wasim Jaffer, Sitanshu were domestic bullies.

Wasim Jaffer is now playing for Vidharbha and he scored 160 + in last week. But he was given chances during his time.

Leading run-scorers in Ranji Trophy
Jaffer - 11056 @ 56.69
Amol Muzumdar - 9202 @ 51.40
Bundela - 9201 @ 45.32
Mithun Manhas - 8554 @ 48.32
Hrishikesh kanitkar - 8059 @ 58.82
Subramaniam Badrinath - 7850 @ 51.98
Kaypee - 7623 @ 54.06
Pankaj Dharmani - 7621 @ 54.43
Sitanshu Kotak - 7607 @ 42.26
Yashpal Singh - 7518 @ 49.78

S Ramesh did not make headlines in domestics as much as others did. He did not have stellar Ranji Seasons as others used to have. His FC average is 43, which is very poor by Indian Ranji Trophy standards. Specialist batsmen have averaged 50 to 60.

[meninblue]

Sussex, in Ranji Trophy / Indian FC it's nothing great to average 43. It's the passing marks , i would say. There will be more than 20 active batsmen averaging over 43 in Ranji trophy even today. Shubman Gill, Prithvi Shaw, Shreyas Iyer, Hanuma Vihari, Karun Nair, Ankit Bawne, Mayank Agarwal all average between 49 - 60 apart from Subman Gill (70+)and Akshay Wadkar (60+) . Their average is exaggerated in 70 but we can expect it to come down in 50 - 65 range. And these names are mentioned by me on first thought without thinking much. There are many more in 45 - 49 range. Average of 43 in in Indian FC is very very common.

My opinion is that a player who scores 900 - 1500 runs per Ranji season or has consecutive stellar Ranji seasons are the ones to look out for rather than finding someone using out of the box observation regarding potential etc from the FC system unless there is someone earmarked like Sachin Tendulkar or Prithvi Shaw types. Not that these two did bad by any standards but just used them as example to get point across. If those type of players average less or are lesser experienced in Ranji cricket , it isfine to pick them but S Ramesh was just another Ranji player who did not do badly, neither did he do much noteworthy.

[meninblue]

Rishabh Pant is the only Indian wicket keeper to have one ton each in England and Australia.

That stat doing rounds regarding balls faced by Chet is amazing. He was not having a wonderful time away from India with his big scores coming at home, but his knocks in this series have been a welcome change.

Some other Australian line up would have scored 600 in response to 600 on this wicket but with this line up it is doubtful they will give a good reply. With this total we are safe in the match. Australia cannot afford to draw this as this will be a historic win for us.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Remember Ramesh for being in the side that beat the Aussies at home. Made some handy contributions I think.