WI tour of South Africa

[Arthur Crabtree]

Ramdin is averaging over 50 since the beginning of last year.

Fifty now, with this series. SR 100. Only Samuels is doing better, and of the others, only DJB at all close.

[shankycricket]

Another failure for Gayle.

Been very below-average this series.

Below average? You mean for the last 5 years? Dreadful for the last 2 and a half years.

[mikesiva]

Good observation, Arthur....

That's what makes the omission of Dwayne Bravo so stupid...it's not like we have a wealth of riches.

Samuels bats on while wickets tumble at the other end...Leon for 18, Ramdin for three, and Carter for five.

[Aidan11]

86/5 !!!

Shambolic.

[mikesiva]

Samuels gets his half-century! Sammy gets his half-century too!

Out for 51...better than most of the front-line batsmen.

[mikesiva]

Still finding it hard to digest that Behardien is considered one of the best 15 cricketers in South Africa.

iirc one of the commentators during an earlier match said he was the top run scorer in south African domestic cricket this season , don't know if that's still true tho and haven't checked it

And his two wickets in this match have really hurt the West Indies....

Samuels out for 68...that could be the final nail in the coffin.

Holder out for 13...eight down.

Carlos run out for 11...nine down.

Russell finishes it with a massive six! 64 not out from just 40 balls, five sixes and five boundaries....

[Aidan11]

What a finish.

Well done WIs.

[andy]

what a finish, well done Andre Russell!!! Has the talent but is a frustrating player!

[Aidan11]

Sums up a few WIs players unfortunately.

[ChrisQ]

Another failure for Gayle.

Been very below-average this series.

Another failure for Gayle.

Been very below-average this series.

Below average? You mean for the last 5 years? Dreadful for the last 2 and a half years.

Yes. As cricinfo noted, Gayle's average since Jan 1, 2013 is just 19.5: http://www.espncricinfo.com/south-afric ... 23937.html

As cricinfo noted about Gayle's average: "the lowest for any batsman (Nos. 1 to 7) who has played at least 20 innings. Gayle has scored 449 runs from 23 innings in this period. There are 60 other batsmen who have played at least 20 innings in this period, with each of them averaging more than 20."

Others have noted that since Jan 1, 2012 his average has been 25.25, lower than a host of other players who play down the order and who are not specialist batsmen for the same period (including Darren Sammy, Denesh Ramdin, Kieron Pollard, ): http://caribbeancricket.com/topic/1098468

Of course, his average is just a smidgen more terrible when you look on it by seasons, since his average since the 2012/13 season (which starts November 1, 2012) is an imposing....18.60! as seen here: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... e=allround

In just about any other team, this player would have been dropped and told to work on his form before being considered for selection again. Of course, with West Indies if Gayle was dropped, people who seem to have little grasp of statistics and performance-based selection would cry foul and be thoroughly puzzled that the WICB/West Indies/selectors were leaving out such a "hard hitter", "powerful" and "amazing batsman" and that the move would be "stupid".

Good observation, Arthur....

That's what makes the omission of Dwayne Bravo so stupid...it's not like we have a wealth of riches.....

As usual when it comes to this idea about Bravo's omission that's just straight up rubbish. In the recent Nagico Super50 he has been his usual flash in the pan self. One good performance followed by others where he (and Pollard) literally would not have been missed by the T&T team if he had simply evaporated. The bottom line is that he is consistent, but consistent on the wrong side of the stats. Unlike real players who are actually any good, Bravo tends to have the occasional good performance amidst a string of mediocre or just downright crappy performances. However given his "energy" and how flashy and amazing the good performance is, it seems some people fall for the glitz and glamour and take him to be a player who should...you know...actually play more often than not. However this is wrong. His being consistently selected is only enabling his mediocrity. He has had a batting problem for a while (and I suspect that honestly he just can't properly bat in anything lasting more than 20 overs, so it isn't a problem so much as an inability) - heck, I remember LARA talking about it and that was years ago. And since then Bravo hasn't changed one bit. He makes the ICC ODI team of the year on the back of performances in the first few months of 2014 and thereafter manages to average 12.57 in the last 10 months (so for over 80% of the year he averaged 12-13 runs per innings and didn't score over 27)

Dwayne Bravo is either lazy or a dunce. It has been noted in the past that he bats better when he bats higher than No. 6. And there is some truth to that. However, while the usual faux fans and bleeding hearts will quickly blame West Indies team management for not batting Bravo higher than No. 6, a very inconvenient fact that will more often than not be overlooked or just plain ignored (or dismissed with quick acceptance and moving on to rather irrelevant matters to the discussion) is that Bravo had been captain for approximately 30 ODI matches and in only SEVEN of those matches did he ever bat himself higher than No. 6 (the opponents then were NZ - which in no small part lead to his high overall average for 2014 and helped him make the ICC ODI team of the year; Ireland, and once against India and Zimbabwe each). On the other hand for 22 of the matches he captained out of 30 overall (against England, India, Zimbabwe, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and in the Champions Trophy) he batted himself at No. 6 or lower. Clearly he either doesn't observe the game or just doesn't care enough to notice. Either way the chances that he would show improvement over time from the usual "flash in the pan" mode are virtually zero.


The idea that there isn't anybody to replace him with is also quite far from the truth. In the recent Nagico Super50, we had Jason Mohammed scoring a century in the final which bumped his List A average up to 41 (and before that century it was around 35). Likewise, players such as Kraigg Brathwaite, Nkrumah Bonner have decent List A averages (34) and averaged over 45 for this Super50. Raymond Reifer averaged 38 from 5 matches this season and his List A average is 27 (he would probably be NO WORSE) than Bravo in terms of overall batting performance even if he didn't have Bravo's flair).

In fact looking back at the averages for the 2013/14, 2012/13, 2011/12 and 2010/11 seasons...

* Brathwaite had a good 2013/14 (average of 61 from 4 matches) and a poor 2012/13 season (average of 17 from 6 matches). Overall average of 34 for the past 3 seasons from over 10 matches.

* Bonner had good 2013/14 (avg 48 from 4 matches), 2012/13 (avg 37 from 7 matches), 2011/12 (avg 50 from 3 matches) and a poor 2010/11 season (average 19 from 3 matches). Overall average of 40 from the past 5 seasons from over 17 innings.

* Reifer had a mediocre 2013/14 (avg 28 from 2 matches) and mediocre 2012/13 season (avg 22 from 8 matches). Overall average of 27 from the past 3 seasons and over 12 matches

* Mohammed had a decent 2013/14 (avg 31 from 3 matches), a very good 2012/13 season (avg 49 from 4 matches), and an excellent 2011/12 season (avg 56 from 5 matches). Overall average of 49 from the past 4 seasons and over 13 matches.


If Kieran Powell works his way back into the Leewards then he is probably going to perform well again (assuming his personal issues haven't affected his batting) and he should avg around 35-45.

Excluding Raymond Reifer, the other 3 mentioned have all performed fairly well season after season. With Gayle struggling to average 20 over the past 2+ years, Bravo having averaged under 15 for the past 10 months (and nothing really needs to be said about Pollard that hasn't been said before), the West Indies would probably get better results if they played a 16-man squad like this:

Nkrumah Bonner/Dwayne Smith (Smith avg 35 as an opener - so keep him for now; Bonner is supposedly a middle order bat but has been opening for Jamaica, so he should bat as an opener but no lower than No. 6)
Kraigg Brathwaite (bats through an innings since his hero is Shiv)
Darren Bravo
Marlon Samuels
Jason Mohammed/Lendl Simmons (neither of these two should bat lower than this unless Russel is injured)
Andre Russell (should bat higher than he does)
Denesh Ramdin +
Jason Holder *
Sunil Narine/Sulieman Benn/Versammy Permaul
Kemar Roach
Sheldon Cotterel/Jerome Taylor

Outside of those 16, they should only really call on Darren Sammy (whose batting has regressed about as badly as Dwayne Bravo in the last 10 months as well), Dwayne Bravo, Kieron Pollard and Chris Gayle when only 10 out of those 16 are able to play

[shankycricket]

Thanks Chris. Those numbers would look even worse if you take out the minnows. I think even Johnson Charles has a far better record than Gayle over the same period. I knew his stats were poor but was too lazy to do the research to quote the exact number. The last 2 and a half years have been diabolical but I think.his struggles extend well beyond that, to the time he was sacked as captain in mid 2010. He was terrible in the previous World Cup, epitomised by his pathetic shot in the quarterfinal against Pakistan.that started the procession after which.he was rightly dropped on performance grounds, he then went to play in the IPL.and remained in international exile for a year. When he came back, he looked like he had a point to prove and had a.good home series against NZ in all formats followed by a tournament winning performance in the 2012 World T20. Since then, he seems to have lost the motivation again and has reverted to being the same old waste of space. So yeah, he has been poor for nearly 5 years now with a brief 3 month purple patch in 2012.

Clearly deserves a spot in the team.

Its quite amusing to see England fans who criticise Cook (quite rightly so) exaggerate the worth of a guy playing for another country, who.has been doing FAR worse.

[Arthur Crabtree]

West Indies ODI batting since beginning of 2014 against top eight sides.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting

And bowling

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

It's lamentable, and I had to set low minimum perameters to get some names on the lists (100 runs, five wickets) but DJB clearly gets in as a batter and a bowler.

[mikesiva]

Good observation, Arthur....

That's what makes the omission of Dwayne Bravo so stupid...it's not like we have a wealth of riches.....

As usual when it comes to this idea about Bravo's omission that's just straight up rubbish. In the recent Nagico Super50 he has been his usual flash in the pan self.

Flash of the pan? Big Bravo took nine wickets at an impressive average of 13.44 in the Super50. Only Narine with 12 wkts @ 7.25 and Permaul with 11 wkts @ 13.36 took more wickets, and Bravo helped Trinidad to win the competition. But, obviously we have so many more players who are much better than Bravo....

That said, the Super50 is ridiculously crammed into one week, when teams should be playing twice as many matches. Rain ruined a few games, reducing the competition to a farce, so it's not the perfect judge of 50-overs ability. This is easily the worst of all our domestic competitions, so it's no surprise that it's our worst format.

That said, I do agree with the team you posted, which will probably be the team for the future, once the humiliation of the World Cup is over....

Bonner, Brathwaite and JaMo all made runs in the Super50, and should be the first port of call when vacancies appear in the 50-overs side. I also agree with your bowling selection, since they are the best of a bad bunch...they still won't do much in the 50 overs format, but at least we won't be hammered - we will just lose by more competitive margins.

Of course, it remains to be seen what happens with Narine and his action, and how injuries affect Roach....

[ChrisQ]

Good observation, Arthur....

That's what makes the omission of Dwayne Bravo so stupid...it's not like we have a wealth of riches.....

As usual when it comes to this idea about Bravo's omission that's just straight up rubbish. In the recent Nagico Super50 he has been his usual flash in the pan self.

Flash of the pan? Big Bravo took nine wickets at an impressive average of 13.44 in the Super50. Only Narine with 12 wkts @ 7.25 and Permaul with 11 wkts @ 13.36 took more wickets, and Bravo helped Trinidad to win the competition. But, obviously we have so many more players who are much better than Bravo....

As hard as this may be for you to believe, Bravo's batting performances are flashes in the pan. Now what his BOWLING has to do with his flash in the pan batting I think only you can tell us since I made absolutely NO MENTION of Bravo's bowling and since up to this post of yours the quotes and conversation made reference to the Bravo's omission being "stupid" in relation yet another batting failure by Gayle (who has BARELY bowled a ball in international cricket in a while)....so unless you were talking about Bravo's bowling in relation to Chris Gayle's batting failures (which would really be quite an odd thing to do and which I'm fairly certain most everyone here who read it did not think you were doing), then we were discussing batting.......

[ChrisQ]

West Indies ODI batting since beginning of 2014 against top eight sides.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting

And bowling

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

It's lamentable, and I had to set low minimum perameters to get some names on the lists (100 runs, five wickets) but DJB clearly gets in as a batter and a bowler.

And to demonstrate what a difference 10 months out 12 can make, here is the same batting query using 01 March 2014 as the start date:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting

Note the consistent performers and who isn't there: Gayle, Pollard, Bravo, Kirk Edwards....


As I said twice before - Bravo did SUPERBLY well in January and February 2014. After that he really hadn't been saying anything at all with his bat. The same cannot be said about Samuels, Ramdin, Russell and even Dwayne Smith.


Modifying the qualifications to have runs of 100 or more instead of 150+, but still from 01 March 2014 gives you this:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting


Maybe folks don't realize that purple patches =/= consistency. As shanky said, Gayle had a purple patch when he came back since he looked like he had a point to prove. Bravo had a very wonderful purple patch in January and February 2014. But consistently selecting a player based on a purple patch that occurred between 10-20% of his playing time in the previous year is a recipe to get more of the same: purple patches (flashes in the pan) followed by prolonged periods of frustration. It would be like selecting Gayle, Bravo or Sarwan in preference to Chanderpaul because of magical 333 knock, a 61 average for the year or a stunning 200+ knock instead of consistent 50s and 100s. Now THAT would be stupid.

Even now Chanderpaul should be in the ODI team. Gayle, Bravo, Pollard and Sammy should not be based on their form. Plain and simple.