Third Test: West Indies v England, 1-5 May.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I prefer Strauss to Flower, by the way, though it's difficult to know what Flower's influence is.

It's possible that Strauss did a good job in the England dressing room (as many claimed), with the difficult personalities, or it's possible he didn't (he left things in disarray). He did at least partly blame himself for this situation (which Flower has never done). But having raised that, I'll let it go as this discussion probably belongs elsewhere. But he didn't appear a particularly imaginative England captain. No Michael Vaughan for sure.

[mikesiva]

TBH Dan most people that follow cricket in england don't know that lol.

They all think the West indies lads would get into the team.
The only real player that would get into the team would be Gayle and he probably way past his best.

SlogGayle wouldn't. I hope not. Not unless Test cricket is reduced to 20 overs a side, played at the Chinnaswamy in Bangalore with at least 3 non-international bowlers in the opposition and Gayle being allowed to wear orange clothes alongwith a nice bear with Vijay Mallya at the end of every day. Need to give Shai Hope a run. If Simmons was available, I'd maybe consider him at 6 for Chanderpaul (Blackwood moving up of course) but he is hardly a proven Test performer. Shane Dowrich has done well in FC cricket. He'd definitely be a contender for the Aus series, should they (hopefully) move on from Shiv.

Gayle is so utterly useless, since 2008, he averages over 50 in tests.....

Comparable to virtually every legend of the game...

Clearly a player a low ranked test team can afford to drop, and clearly a player incapable of FC and well past his best (he averaged 46 last year, approximately what Justin Langer managed through his career)

He was very good from 2008 till mid 2012, hence those stats. How is that relevant here? Shows what you can twist to present things the way you want. The point is about his decline since. Anyone who has watched him bat in tests and ODIs in that time will tell you he's gone.

As for averaging 46 last year, again a case of presenting stats to depict an untrue picture. Now just to give some context, he played a grand total of THREE Tests last year (6 innings). The average is padded up by a 70 odd not out chasing a score of 120 in quick time vs NZ (T20 type scenario - if you watched that innings, it was a proper T20 innings) and a 65 in the first innings of the first Test where he looked like getting out almost each and every delivery to Southee but somehow managed not to get a nick before feasting on some short deliveries from Ish Sodhi to help himself to a fifty. He failed in the other 4 innings and looked clueless against swing. Anyone who actually WATCHED that series will argue that as a case against Gayle playing tests as opposed to a case for him. Before that, he missed the series in NZ through injury and failed in India and a bit before that, in Bangladesh. I don't understand how anyone who has watched him bat in Tests and ODIs post the 2012 World t20 triumph can argue that he is still fit to play anything more than 20 overs. But sure, you can pretend everything is rosy with those selective stats without any context.

Your obvious dislike of Gayle is clouding your judgment....

Who would you choose to replace Gayle as opening partner with Kraigg Brathwaite? The WI selectors tried Devon Smith, and that experiment failed. They then took a 21-year old Bajan who'd played in the middle order (Shai Hope), and foolishly converted him into an opener, and that failed.

So, if not Gayle, who's the next cab off the rank?

[Arthur Crabtree]

Hard to say Hope failed. But he did seem a bit out of his depth, on that evidence. And he isn't an opener.

[greyblazer]

I know there one bowler Greyblazer likes but I don't know his name, he been heavily talked about but not yet got a game for the West indies.

Delorn Johnson?

Miguel Cummins

He's already played for the West Indies. Not in Tests though.

Cummins with his pace and hostility can add something to their bowling in Tests. In the shorter forms may struggle.

[greyblazer]

Delorn Johnson swung it at a decent burst of pace against India 'A' in 2011. Since then seems to have lost his way.

[mikesiva]

Delorn Johnson swung it at a decent burst of pace against India 'A' in 2011. Since then seems to have lost his way.

Watching them in the PCL, it seems that both Delorn and Cummins have lost their way....

According to Bishop's analysis, Cummins doesn't seem to know what to do with his left arm on the follow-through, being a right-hander, and tends to awkwardly tuck his left arm into his body, affecting his rhythm.

[Arthur Crabtree]

By the way, before the thread gets filed away, I don't know why Rich took offence at a remark I made. Which I can only see as childish, rather than offensive (unless I missed something). But my apologies anyway. I certainly don't intend to to annoy, even if it appears otherwise

[greyblazer]

I saw him back in 2013 against India A. Cummins came across as a gifted athlete and just wanted to bowl as fast as he could. In one of those one-day games when WI A made about 300, he created awkward angles and none of India A's batsmen wanted to face him that day on a batting paradise. I don't know whether he has been messed up. He is a sort of bowler who should just look to do what works for him and that is to bowl quick.

[ChrisQ]

TBH Dan most people that follow cricket in england don't know that lol.

They all think the West indies lads would get into the team.
The only real player that would get into the team would be Gayle and he probably way past his best.

SlogGayle wouldn't. I hope not. Not unless Test cricket is reduced to 20 overs a side, played at the Chinnaswamy in Bangalore with at least 3 non-international bowlers in the opposition and Gayle being allowed to wear orange clothes alongwith a nice bear with Vijay Mallya at the end of every day. Need to give Shai Hope a run. If Simmons was available, I'd maybe consider him at 6 for Chanderpaul (Blackwood moving up of course) but he is hardly a proven Test performer. Shane Dowrich has done well in FC cricket. He'd definitely be a contender for the Aus series, should they (hopefully) move on from Shiv.

Gayle is so utterly useless, since 2008, he averages over 50 in tests.....

Comparable to virtually every legend of the game...

Clearly a player a low ranked test team can afford to drop, and clearly a player incapable of FC and well past his best (he averaged 46 last year, approximately what Justin Langer managed through his career)

He was very good from 2008 till mid 2012, hence those stats. How is that relevant here? Shows what you can twist to present things the way you want. The point is about his decline since. Anyone who has watched him bat in tests and ODIs in that time will tell you he's gone.

As for averaging 46 last year, again a case of presenting stats to depict an untrue picture. Now just to give some context, he played a grand total of THREE Tests last year (6 innings). The average is padded up by a 70 odd not out chasing a score of 120 in quick time vs NZ (T20 type scenario - if you watched that innings, it was a proper T20 innings) and a 65 in the first innings of the first Test where he looked like getting out almost each and every delivery to Southee but somehow managed not to get a nick before feasting on some short deliveries from Ish Sodhi to help himself to a fifty. He failed in the other 4 innings and looked clueless against swing. Anyone who actually WATCHED that series will argue that as a case against Gayle playing tests as opposed to a case for him. Before that, he missed the series in NZ through injury and failed in India and a bit before that, in Bangladesh. I don't understand how anyone who has watched him bat in Tests and ODIs post the 2012 World t20 triumph can argue that he is still fit to play anything more than 20 overs. But sure, you can pretend everything is rosy with those selective stats without any context.

Your obvious dislike of Gayle is clouding your judgment....

That's an interesting theory you have there. What evidence do you have to back up the assertion that shanky's judgement is being clouded? (I'm not referring to any like or dislike of Gayle, so you can forget dodging the issue by harping on that)

Can you demonstrate where shanky's observations about the number of tests played by Gayle in 2014 is incorrect and that shanky's remarks on how Gayle fared against Southee and swing bowling is off? A nice video link would go a long way to disproving shanky's and confirming that as you assert (without any basis whatsoever I suspect) shanky's judgement is being clouded.

Who would you choose to replace Gayle as opening partner with Kraigg Brathwaite?

Sounds like you would have Gayle play eternity, even after death......for whatever reason or reasons you may have.

The WI selectors tried Devon Smith, and that experiment failed. They then took a 21-year old Bajan who'd played in the middle order (Shai Hope), and foolishly converted him into an opener, and that failed.

So, if not Gayle, who's the next cab off the rank?

Well here's an idea...maybe they could pick another opener who made runs in the recently concluded PCL....maybe Theophile? Or is it not worth it to give him an run and rather work on turning Gayle into a vampire or zombie so they don't have to bother wasting other openers' time in trying to perform to make it onto the team?

An out of the box idea could also be to simply have Darren Bravo open since more often than not he has basically opened for the series anyway. Then Shai Hope can be slotted in down the order.

[KipperJohn]

By the way, before the thread gets filed away, I don't know why Rich took offence at a remark I made. Which I can only see as childish, rather than offensive (unless I missed something). But my apologies anyway. I certainly don't intend to to annoy, even if it appears otherwise

Haven't gone back to look Arthur, but at the time I must confess I had no understanding of what the remark meant or the response either. Just presumed it was something private between the two of you.

You are both very good posters so I hope no harm's done.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Cheers KJ.

[Aidan11]

Looking forward to us wrapping up victory today.



Oh that's right.....

[sussexpob]

By the way, before the thread gets filed away, I don't know why Rich took offence at a remark I made. Which I can only see as childish, rather than offensive (unless I missed something). But my apologies anyway. I certainly don't intend to to annoy, even if it appears otherwise

The comment about you waiting? I didnt really understand what that meant, it was pretty random!

Not sure how it could have been offensive

[sussexpob]

[
As for averaging 46 last year, again a case of presenting stats to depict an untrue picture. Now just to give some context, he played a grand total of THREE Tests last year (6 innings). The average is padded up by a 70 odd not out chasing a score of 120 in quick time vs NZ (T20 type scenario - if you watched that innings, it was a proper T20 innings) and a 65 in the first innings of the first Test where he looked like getting out almost each and every delivery to Southee but somehow managed not to get a nick before feasting on some short deliveries from Ish Sodhi to help himself to a fifty. He failed in the other 4 innings and looked clueless against swing. Anyone who actually WATCHED that series will argue that as a case against Gayle playing tests as opposed to a case for him. Before that, he missed the series in NZ through injury and failed in India and a bit before that, in Bangladesh. I don't understand how anyone who has watched him bat in Tests and ODIs post the 2012 World t20 triumph can argue that he is still fit to play anything more than 20 overs. But sure, you can pretend everything is rosy with those selective stats without any context.

His ODI form in 2015 is to average 38 at 116SR.....

His last test year he averaged 46, and despite your accusation of selective stats, was only a few runs away in one test from making sure he scored a 50 in each one.....

Currently averaging 40 in IPL 2015....


If this means he is finished, then I despair for everyone else playing cricket.... you set the bench mark very high.

[andy]

MY SERIES RATINGS

ENGLAND

Cook - 7 (returned to form good to see)
Trott - 3 (finished at international level)
Ballance - 10 (350 runs for the series, class act in tests)
Bell - 5 (frustrates again)
Root - 10 ( 358 runs at 59, also bowled well)
Moeen - 4 (poor series with bat and ball)
Buttler - 6 (average with bat and gloves)
Jordan - 7 (unlucky with bat, bowled tightly but needs more wickets)
Tredwell - 7 (bowled well, unlucky to be dropped)
Anderson - 10 (17 wickets in 3 games, and was class)
Broad - 7 (bowled pretty well, but no more than a number 11 with bat)

WINDIES

Brathwaite - 5
Hope - 4 (not convincing, doubt he will last long)
Bravo - 7 (got starts but didn't get a big one)
Samuels - 6 (frustrates with the bat, and offers nothing with the ball)
Shiv - 3 (think his time is coming to an end)
Blackwood - 10 (311 runs at 51, and a real bright spark for the windies)
Ramdin - 6
Holder - 8 (good prospect for the windies future test captain)
D.Smith - 3 (surely his time has gone)
Taylor - 9
Gabriel - 7
Permaul - 6 (inconsistent)
Roach - 5 (looks shattered, needs a rest)
Bishoo - 6
Benn - 4