3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

[Arthur Crabtree]

It'd be useful to know if they survive their own test of usefulness.

If someone did well in CC (a test of pressure to some extent?) would you stop someone from advancing because of a test?

I expect these tests are meant to be used to help communicate with people who are already being given a chance, rather than to decide who to should have a chance. Who would dare to make a decision on someone's career based on something like this? I can't imagine it would be justifiable.

[rich1uk]

i very much doubt they would be using them in isolation and the result of a pyschological test be the deciding factor

i wasn't even talking about a paper test tbh but rather the judgement from people who work with the players day in, day out and have the chance to observe how they react in different situations

playing in the CC is of course a test of pressure but i dont think many people would argue that the step up from domestic to international cricket isn't significant

edit : just to add, if we are talking primarily about Leach wasn't it his county coach who raised concerns over whether Leach was ready for test cricket, the guy who probably knows more about Leach as a cricketer than anyone else

[Dr Cricket]

but then shouldn't the lions be used to pick the players.

[Making_Splinters]

Good to see Jennings added to the squad, arguably he should have been there in the first place over Duckett and Hameed.

It will make selection for the summer very interesting if he does well, could he bat four with Hameed opening?

No idea why Dawson has been added to the squad, the last thing we need is another mediocre spinner. We need another batsman, would this have not been an ideal opportunity to get a look at Westley or Gubbins?

[Dr Cricket]

No idea why Dawson has been added to the squad, the last thing we need is another mediocre spinner. We need another batsman, would this have not been an ideal opportunity to get a look at Westley or Gubbins?

not sure what he adds to the squad, unlikely to play as a 3rd spinner, unlikely to play as a batsman and unlikely to force cook or bayliss to pick him.
if anything he might get a game just because people that don't get picked look better than the guys playing.
Think most of the fuss been that if they were picking a spinner it would have been a far better spinner than Dawson.
think majority of media/fans expected or wanted a batsman to replace ansari especially with most coming to the conclusion England can play another batsman in place of Batty with england going with 5 bowlers with Woakes missing out.
Now England are forced to play 6 bowlers since ballance/Duckett have to come back in the team batting at number 8 if they do decide with 5 bowlers.

Really can't see Dawson getting a game, doing well or even making a case for selection which adds the point why pick him especially when the bench is full of duds.
Ballance, Duckett, Ball, Finn, Dawson and batty all joining the list of not even being close to a spot in the test team.

So cook picking 11 players from a squad of 12 and he has no option but to play 6 bowlers with at least 2 redundant.

[Arthur Crabtree]

edit : just to add, if we are talking primarily about Leach wasn't it his county coach who raised concerns over whether Leach was ready for test cricket, the guy who probably knows more about Leach as a cricketer than anyone else

Just speculating. It was the captain of Somerset who made that observation, Rogers. There have been press comments before about a few other players not being thought of highly in terms of 'mental strength' the most prominent being James Taylor, who hugely outscored everyone for years playing with the Lions but wasn't much rated by Flower. KP alludes to this in his book.

[rich1uk]

edit : just to add, if we are talking primarily about Leach wasn't it his county coach who raised concerns over whether Leach was ready for test cricket, the guy who probably knows more about Leach as a cricketer than anyone else

Just speculating. It was the captain of Somerset who made that observation, Rogers. There have been press comments before about a few other players not being thought of highly in terms of 'mental strength' the most prominent being James Taylor, who hugely outscored everyone for years playing with the Lions but wasn't much rated by Flower. KP alludes to this in his book.

made a comment a few days ago about whether the selectors have over-reacted to what happened with kerrigan and are a bit scared of throwing a young spinner in if there are any doubts

[Dr Cricket]

but surely bowling so many overs in the nets to some good batsman are way better than bowling to some awful UAE batsman in Dubai.
Far better for the english batsman to face leach than some crap 10 yr old from india.
Leach wasn't even going to play in the test but would be nice if england actually had an option to pick a decent spinner if they need to.
what happens if Rashid/Ali are injured Dawson and batty leading the attack.
Same with the batting what happens if overnight Stokes, Bairstow, Root, Jenning anyone injured.
Ballance and Duckett suddenly expected to play and do well.

Doubt Tours/Series ends well when a captain is picking a team from a squad of 12.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I used to feel that the A games did give some indication about who would step up. They seemed to get a bit discredited about the time of a series v SA A on very flat pitches. Again it was Flower who was reported as thinking his performance meet ups were better for picking the best players. I don't think it has worked as well. But it has allowed Flower to retain influence, without it being undermined by performance on the pitch, which can't be controlled.

It was in SL that Moeen and Kerrigan played together in three A Tests and Mo was selected for the Test team after doing better. I seem to remember Woakes actually having the best tour though and being ignored (Woakes nearly excelled for the Lions as much as Taylor but found progress difficult).

[rich1uk]

for me one of the issues with the progression from county cricket to performance squads to lions to test consideration was always just how long it took and it maybe didn't take account of current form

so you maybe ended up with the situation where a spot opened up in the test team and it could come down to a choice between someone who ticked all the boxes of being through the intermediate levels but was maybe not in great form or someone playing well but hadn't been in the performance squad or lions before

[braveneutral]

16personalities.com is a good one.

I do see what impact a personality type could have on someone at the top level but perhaps am missing the point of this conversation.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Fair point. But then it did allow for selection from something more substantial than just current form.

Some mistrust the value of what the performance squads are doing, and feel it undermines the work done at the county. They would point to Haseeb coming in from CC and doing well on a tough tour, without being assessed by Flower, and say, Ballance or Vince who have been processed. But I don't think I can be impartial as my impression is that Flower is some order of crazy loon who would be off the scale in any personality test.

[Dr Cricket]

16personalities.com is a good one.

I do see what impact a personality type could have on someone at the top level but perhaps am missing the point of this conversation.

What did you get.
quite happy with mines and is quite accurate.
Although not sure I am that smart, uni killed my confidence in Studying right now.

[braveneutral]

INFJ.

[rich1uk]

i think we are probably in agreement at some level AC

the theory of the progression makes sense but it takes good management to make it work

identification of talent at county level has to be paramount but it takes the right people to be making those calls

how players of different personalities deal with the pressures of test cricket will never go away, its part of what makes people individuals, its how you manage that and realise that to get the best out of people requires a flexible approach that makes it work

thats why the people in those roles get paid the big bucks and it has all appeared a bit haphazard recently

for me the best move we have made on the management side in recent times was getting rid of saker and bringing back gibson as i think that has helped the seam bowlers