Fourth Test: India v England, 8-12 Dec.

[rich1uk]

i know its not as simple as this but vijay, kohli and javant put on 358 runs between them after being dropped or the missed stumping

[backfootpunch]

be interesting what people team would be if they followed Athers suggestion earlier.
Best batsman bat in the top 5, stokes 6, Bairstow 7, best 4 bowlers in the conditions.
Assuming team would be this.
Cook
Jennings
Root
Buttler
?
stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Rashid
Anderson
Broad/woakes.

Buttler isn't a top order batsmen

If we're talking for the next series then

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler (wk)
Rashid
Woakes
Broad
Jimmy

[backfootpunch]

i know its not as simple as this but vijay, kohli and javant put on 358 runs between them after being dropped or the missed stumping

You have to feel that drop of Kohli at 315-6 or whatever was the turning point

[Dr Cricket]

was picking it for the india series squad quite poor to fill the entire 11.

[backfootpunch]

was picking it for the india series squad quite poor to fill the entire 11.

I'd go

Cook
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Moeen
Stokes
Buttler (wk)
Dawson
Woakes
Rashid
Ball

Don't see any point playing Jimmy in a dead rubber

[rich1uk]

was picking it for the india series squad quite poor to fill the entire 11.

I'd go

Cook
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Moeen
Stokes
Buttler (wk)
Dawson
Woakes
Rashid
Ball

Don't see any point playing Jimmy in a dead rubber

even tho i think calling up dawson was a strange decision, with the personnel available that is the team they will probably go with apart from dropping/resting anderson, cant see any way he doesn't play given there is nothing to rest him for with him not being in the ODIs anyway, might depend on broad's fitness

[alfie]

is there anyway to block someone's posts completely so you are not tempted to click on the "display this post" option as this persistent whining about england from bhav is getting extremely tiresome

with you there , rich - I can hardly raise the energy to post on here any more after having to wade through pages of this stuff ; anyone is entitled to a view but surely it doesn't have to be repeated with minor variations over and over again...

It kills serious discussion of the cricket .

[Making_Splinters]

I might be alone in thinking this, but England have exceeded expectations on this tour.

Let's face it, beating India in India is the toughest assignment in modern Cricket. Trying to do so without a couple of very good spinners is all but impossible.

Despite that England have been in good positions at various points during the series and if anything that makes the way the series has panned out hard to stomach. Before the series I'd have taken a 3-0 or 4-0 loss as a positive result. If anything we've gone beyond that with a couple of exciting players stepping up.

[ddb]

i know its not as simple as this but vijay, kohli and javant put on 358 runs between them after being dropped or the missed stumping

India had this issue overseas before it's small margins and they make for big losses. I think creating less opportunities is the real issue, you would always expect to drop some. Kohli has only one score below 50 right? And he stood on his stumps. Sometimes you've just got to say he's too good. We've got him and Ashwin that will prove to be ATG in these conditions. It's nice honestly as an Indian fan after 2011. Kohli has given us some fire back. I think England have been pretty good. I was worried after test 1 but we are cheating with kohli and Ashwin

[Dr Cricket]

yep that was the biggest negative of dhoni reign.
I don't care if india loses but to lose without a fight really got annoying and he didn't get the best out of his players.
it was pretty clear to see the differences between Kohli in overseas and dhoni overseas.
Kohli 2 losses have been close as well both cases india could have won in the final session.
not really seen any indian fan complain about the team because of the loss either they just given credit to the opposition for being the better team.
India might lose well they will have to lose a series at some point.
but I am 100% certain india with kohli in charge will fight and be competitive overseas.
Kohli got the players to be competitive overseas anyway, bat deep, decent pace men and very good spinners.
hardik pandya injury was unlucky would have been nice to see him in the dead rubber especially since prasad, dravid,kumble, kohli have got a good A structure and if dravid rates him he must be some talent with the bat or ball like Jayant yadav.

[rich1uk]

i know its not as simple as this but vijay, kohli and javant put on 358 runs between them after being dropped or the missed stumping

India had this issue overseas before it's small margins and they make for big losses. I think creating less opportunities is the real issue, you would always expect to drop some. Kohli has only one score below 50 right? And he stood on his stumps. Sometimes you've just got to say he's too good. We've got him and Ashwin that will prove to be ATG in these conditions. It's nice honestly as an Indian fan after 2011. Kohli has given us some fire back. I think England have been pretty good. I was worried after test 1 but we are cheating with kohli and Ashwin

kohli has been exceptional and so has ashwin after a slow start to the series

as you say the problem is not just the drops themselves but the inability to create more chances afterwards

[Dr Cricket]

Butcher talking a lot of sense in the verdict.

[bigfluffylemon]

i know its not as simple as this but vijay, kohli and javant put on 358 runs between them after being dropped or the missed stumping

India had this issue overseas before it's small margins and they make for big losses. I think creating less opportunities is the real issue, you would always expect to drop some. Kohli has only one score below 50 right? And he stood on his stumps. Sometimes you've just got to say he's too good. We've got him and Ashwin that will prove to be ATG in these conditions. It's nice honestly as an Indian fan after 2011. Kohli has given us some fire back. I think England have been pretty good. I was worried after test 1 but we are cheating with kohli and Ashwin

That's absolutely right. Kohli, Vijay and Yadav might have added 358 runs after being dropped/missed stumpings, but the question is how did England go for 358 runs without creating another chance?

India have dropped some too. The difference is, with a spinner as good as Ashwin in the side, if you drop one, you're likely to get another chance before it costs you heavily. With Kohli batting against modest spinners, if you drop one chance, that's all you get.

To be honest, for all that Kohli has been very good this series, I think that the critical difference between the two sides is Ashwin. India have a world class spinner. England do not. Just about everything in the series can be traced back to that.

On surfaces that have actually been pretty good cricket wickets, don't do much on days 1-3 then start to deteriorate, a world class spinner creates chances even against very good batsmen when the pitch isn't a overly helpful. Average spinners do not.
Had Kohli been batting against Ashwin, would he have scored 600 runs? I doubt it.
Had England been batting against Rashid and Moeen rather than Ashwin and Jadeja, would they have scored more? You would think so.
England's drops have cost them more than India's because India create more chances.
England get out to silly shots in part because India's spinners are able to tie them down. If they don't try and play some shots, they'll never score anything because of the accuracy and the fact that India's spinners can bowl all day.
Conversely, India's batsmen know that England's spinners will give them a poor ball every over or so that they can score from, so don't worry so much about seeing off a good spell with a low scoring rate for a while.

England's selection issues have been a distraction. There isn't an XI in English cricket at the moment that could have won, as there isn't a good enough spinner. Maybe in 3-4 years time Leach, or even Rashid, if he continues to improve, will be. But not today.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Good post and I can't argue with it, except to say that against such odds, England had to get most things right, and that included getting the best squad out there, and making good decisions, setting good fields, fielding well, preparing well.... and England got a lot wrong. They got surprisingly near in the first game, nearer than I thought they would get. But the magnitude of the task isn't an excuse for the ill preparedness of the attempt. Perhaps the opposite.

[bigfluffylemon]

Good post and I can't argue with it, except to say that against such odds, England had to get most things right, and that included getting the best squad out there, and making good decisions, setting good fields, fielding well, preparing well.... and England got a lot wrong. They got surprisingly near in the first game, nearer than I thought they would get. But the magnitude of the task isn't an excuse for the ill preparedness of the attempt. Perhaps the opposite.

True. I think had they done that we might be looking at 2-0 or 2-1 rather than 3-0, and the margins of defeat would be smaller. But sometimes, the opposition is just too good in the conditions.