England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Eng in India, Afg vs Ire in UAE, SA & Oz in NZ, SL in Bang

Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby sussexpob » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:30 pm

The history is being re-written as we speak. Its pretty laughable, I seen this coming a mile off a couple of years ago, but it seems news now that Flower has a "new" role. Quite laughably I have seen the press spin this as Flower answering a calling, that the selectors and coach couldnt get it right or agree, so Flower has emerged like a soaring bird of prey from a big turd, coming to save the day. The most amusing thing was that it said Flower had "preferred to take himself away from the high profile roles", which is the nicest way possible of describing him being sacked after the worst tour in England's cricket history.

It seems to ignore the fact that we know a lot of England's selection bungles have been Flower's endorsements. In fact, if I had to guess, Id say Flower has had the biggest disaster in selections in the last 4 years. The idea that he suddenly has assumed this responsibility was to adequately balme someone else for his string of failures. Its not like Flower had no influence in suggest James VInce was the best player ever, or Ball was a legend in the waiting.

But if anyone is left in any doubt about Bayliss and Flower, then one only has to check the reguritated nonsense about Dawson to know that Bayliss is now essentially answering to Andy. No sooner had the pick been made, apparently we have heard that Flower's first (cough cough) interaction in selection was nothing but a positive, with Bayliss and all the selection committee agreeing that Dawson was the better pick.

And the reason? Because they all noticed Dawson was a "three dimensional cricketer" with a "fiery attitude". Leach is being painted as the pansy introvert with no personality. Who does that sound like? Andy maybe? But hey, the press are already covering the bases because they all are united in agreement, not Flower forcing this on any one.

Flower will be England Head Coach by 2018. You heard it here first!
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby sussexpob » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:34 pm

In fact, the recent articles about Flower's increasing influence are worded microscopically to ensure that Flower (a) takes as much credit as possible for any player he has success with. Dawson's pick has the Flower endorsement all over, the articles speak at great lengths about how Dawson is Flower stepping up, pushing the dross ideas out the way, and flopping his manhood on the table.....

Yet (b).... There is a clause in everyone that states Flwoer simply said what Bayliss wanted, a little bit. So when it all goes Pete Tong, Flower's role will be reclassified again, Bayliss will have been stated to have made the decision based on his own observations, would have failed to coach him right, and will get the blame.

Then Andy will be touting the next legend he's found with someone else. Andy Andy Andy Andy..... wait a minute, he turns out to be another turd.... Not Andy, Not Andy, Not Andy, Not Andy

Cycle continues
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:37 pm

At least if Flower comes clean about his role he can be held accountable for his decisions. Previously we were relying on ECB friendly journalists to plump up stories of his influence. Like his part in promoting Vince and Ballance. And in fairness, Wood didn't have chance to prove himself but looked promising (though it's probably impossible to hide a 90mph bowler in CC). If selection comes with Flower's signature, we at least get a list under his name of successes and failures.

Most of us have already made up our minds on Flower, one way or another, and are unlikely to change it.

Regarding accountability, what we know most clearly about Strauss his that is tenure isn't dependant on good results. So accountability does mostly stretch one way only with the ECB.
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:51 pm

For me, news of the laundering of Flower's reputation is the worst possible development. He's done too much ill for me to allow him back without resentment, even if his return only means his invisibility is no longer desirable to the ECB.

I'm hearing the kind of suggestions that predated Moores' return about Flower now, that he has changed and recognises his mistakes, but not specifically, with no cases reopened, no apologies offered, no misguided policies decried.

One thing that strikes me about KP-gate was that no one changed their mind among the observers, and yet the facts developed hugely from what we initially knew. A great deal of evidence and case history was heard, though often through third parties. But no one budged. Though I didn't change my view because I was right all along...
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby braveneutral » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:12 pm

Yes I remember how you stood ardently behind the ECB in those dark days. Your faith was unwavering.
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I suppose.

At times.

Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby sussexpob » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:15 pm

I think his "invisibility" is only undesireable because they see it as covering up all the positives they think he brings. They are pushing Bayliss and the other plebs out of the way and bringing in the real guy, the brains of the operation. Yet, Flower has so much goodwill in the press that dont expect anything he does to be criticised, they have positioned him in a no lose situation where everygood selection will have Flower's trademark all over it, and every poor one will come with a condesending message to Bayliss that he is not doing his job, that its him that is the problem.

Thats the genius of being able to control the output mechanisms from what is essentially a decision by committee. The only difference this move makes, to me, is that Flower's breath can be felt on Bayliss' neck every turn. And such a move does a lot to soldifiy and downgrade Bayliss' view on players and his capability. With every passing bad decision, Flower wins. With every single good decision being given to Flower, even if it isnt his, the questions will be what value Bayliss brings.

If England lose this series and dont do well in the next 12 months, then the news articles will start to appear about him not knowing the game in England. In fact, they have already started. And how knows about all the talent? You guessed it!

I think a lot of people would sack Bayliss now and install Flower back.
Last edited by sussexpob on Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:17 pm

braveneutral wrote:Yes I remember how you stood ardently behind the ECB in those dark days. Your faith was unwavering.


Still no knighthood.
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby braveneutral » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:17 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
braveneutral wrote:Yes I remember how you stood ardently behind the ECB in those dark days. Your faith was unwavering.


Still no knighthood.

Yet.
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I suppose.

At times.

Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:23 pm

sussexpob wrote:I think his "invisibility" is only undesireable because they see it as covering up all the positives they think he brings...


A misjudgement. Sure, there are plenty of people who think only of Flower that he did a great job, got England to number one, and a more extreme element who think he did well to force out KP. But there are still a good number who stopped supporting England and buying tickets and cancelled their Sky Sports over the affair. Even if the ECB think it's time these did their duty again and the machinations of the ECB are none of their business, they must know that disengagement is still out there.
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:24 pm

braveneutral wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:
braveneutral wrote:Yes I remember how you stood ardently behind the ECB in those dark days. Your faith was unwavering.


Still no knighthood.

Yet.


Do what you can for the new year list. Maybe you can hack their files and add my name (any, Mildred, Arthur, whatever). I'll refuse it of course.
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby sussexpob » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:16 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
sussexpob wrote:I think his "invisibility" is only undesireable because they see it as covering up all the positives they think he brings...


A misjudgement. Sure, there are plenty of people who think only of Flower that he did a great job, got England to number one, and a more extreme element who think he did well to force out KP. But there are still a good number who stopped supporting England and buying tickets and cancelled their Sky Sports over the affair. Even if the ECB think it's time these did their duty again and the machinations of the ECB are none of their business, they must know that disengagement is still out there.


I remember after the Oval test in 2012 that I wrote a post stating that England had lost focus, that the team was clearly knackered, and that it was clearly evident that the performances under Flower were heading South and that he had reached his sell by date. I think I got an almost universal pounding from the majority on these boards for suggesting that, got mocked for being a knee-jerk poster, and that Flower's England simply had a few bad days. I think that sums up what most people feel about Flower. There is adequate scope, desire and media support to re-categorise Flower as the victim of a disruptive and toxic dressing room environment, and so many people are partial to that argument.

Id suggest we are in the minority. Or at least there is parity. Most fans would accept it without much notice, on the balance of his success and failure being worthy as a second chance. The press would proclaim it the second coming. And the minority people like us will disapprove, but hey, I dont think people care about that.
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby sussexpob » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:17 pm

People might start disagreeing with him when he starts blaming series loses on Joe Root in the future, mind
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:04 pm

sussexpob wrote:I remember after the Oval test in 2012 that I wrote a post stating that England had lost focus, that the team was clearly knackered, and that it was clearly evident that the performances under Flower were heading South and that he had reached his sell by date.


Against SA?

This was before KP was left out for Lord's, when discontent became more widespread. But there was building suspicion of Flower by then, partly fuelled by he, and the press, refusing to acknowledge England's slump in UAE and SL and a rather lacklustre showing v WI. And then the huge defeat by SA. Some were annoyed by a Test v SA being cut to allow (I think) another five match ODI series v Australia.
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:36 pm

I think that most of the discussion on England being tired centred on whether the four man attack should continue to be flogged.

Flower got criticism in UAE for many reasons, including not picking Monty in the first Test. I'm not sure we knew enough to criticise his unceasing, unyielding training methods back then though.
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Re: England Lions tour of UAE, 2016.

Postby westoelad » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:37 pm

England ODI squad

Moeen Ali (Worcestershire)
Jonathan Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Jake Ball (Nottinghamshire)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Liam Dawson (Hampshire)
Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire)
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) Captain
Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
Joe Root (Yorkshire)
Jason Roy (Surrey)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
David Willey (Yorkshire)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)

England IT20 squad

Moeen Ali (Worcestershire)
Jake Ball (Nottinghamshire)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Liam Dawson (Hampshire)
Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Tymal Mills (Sussex)
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex, captain)
Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
Joe Root (Yorkshire)
Jason Roy (Surrey)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
David Willey (Yorkshire)
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