Fifth Test: India v England, 16-20 Dec (Chennai)

[sussexpob]

In fact, the whole argument is strangely reminiscent of the late 90's when England searched for a spinner. At the time the only team in county cricket really making spinning pitches was Northants. The tale of the Northants spinners at this time shows you how much emphasis followers of cricket in England place on the ability of a potential international candidate based on the conditions they play in.

Northants at times picked three spinners I believe in the 1997-01 time. Michael Davies, Swann and Jason Brown. Swann at the time was seen as a potential international allrounder, but not a specialist spinner, so he got the step up to the national team in 1999. Brown (I believe) was the top wicket taker in county cricket in 2000 and won himself a tour to Sri Lanka where he carried drinks for a month. Davies amazingly ended up with 100 wickets in his time at Northants at 25 odd per wicket, and retired at 25 because he was seen as a spin track bully, and couldnt even persuade Essex to give him a single game in 2001 after the signed him initially on a limited trial contract.

Swann and Brown have nearly the same runs per wicket record in First Class cricket. And both played significantly for Notts and Northants on the same pitches and at the same time (Brown was signed for Notts as a replacement for Swann once he was captured by England, I believe).

Yet the difference is Swann went away from Northants earlier. Quite ironically, in 2004 Swann had a poor year on debut at Notts, but ended up on a B tour. It was like taking wickets at 22 in Northants meant so little compared to looking half decent at Trent Bridge and averaging 40. It was only really when Giles went down and Swann was passed over, that they desperately went for Panesar, the next Northants bowler off the block, but since they lost Brown and Swann, they stopped producing spinning pitches.

So yeah, more spinning pitches would probably leave your average spinner in a Rushworth or Hildreth position where they are defined by the pitches they play on, and deemed unpickable for it. In fact, Jason Brown missed out on a test cap in Sri Lanka because Dawson, who played on seamer friendly wickets and had a pretty bad FC record, was seen as more versatile and the safer pick, simply because he didnt play on wickets that helped him. His stats were therefore seen as no indication as to his quality.

[Making_Splinters]

Agreed, Sussex, that was certainly the case with Kerrigan and you got the sense that Cook and the ECB never really trusted him.

Then again, if a spinner plays his home game on turning tracks, he's not going to be playing away on them so that should give some indication of their potential on non helpful tracks. Such is the case with Hildreth who despite the common perception that he is a flat track bully at Taunton, he's actually done well away from there and even when Taunton has not been a flat track, this has sadly been ignored by everyone.

Would you rather have a spinner who can do damage in helpful conditions, or just one who can tie up an end in all conditions?

I'd pick the former.

[backfootpunch]

Agreed, Sussex, that was certainly the case with Kerrigan and you got the sense that Cook and the ECB never really trusted him.

Then again, if a spinner plays his home game on turning tracks, he's not going to be playing away on them so that should give some indication of their potential on non helpful tracks. Such is the case with Hildreth who despite the common perception that he is a flat track bully at Taunton, he's actually done well away from there and even when Taunton has not been a flat track, this has sadly been ignored by everyone.

Would you rather have a spinner who can do damage in helpful conditions, or just one who can tie up an end in all conditions?

I'd pick the former.

Agreed

We have seamers who are capable of being economical in all conditions

With 4 seamers we have no need for a holding spinner, we need a wicket taker

[bigfluffylemon]

England don't seem to be improving on saving games with the bat. The attacking way has failed too often for them to keep trying that method.

Not a defeat on the scale of the Ashes 5-0 or UAE whitewash, but a great gulf in class. Well done to India. Could well win in England next time.

Agenda:
Review the spinner policy
Change the captain
Try and get Wood fit
Find a middle order bat

We don't need to find a middle order bat, we've got to hope that Jennings builds on his promise.

We could still do with another specialist bat in the middle order. If you assume that the line-up will be:
Cook, Hameed, Jennings, Root, Bairstow, Stokes

That leaves one more position to fill. Do you play Ali? In my view, he plays as a specialist batsman or not at all, and despite some good knocks this year, I'm not convinced he's top 6 material. Or do you play Buttler as wicketkeeper, a specialist batsman or not at all?

If the answer to both of those is no, then Bairstow plays keeper and there's another batsman to find.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Moeen isn't going to make runs in Australia given his problems playing bouncers. You could solve the problem by batting Bairstow there, but then that would probably mean finding another keeper. And Bairstow wants to keep and on the whole, probably deserves a chance to improve in that role.

[Red Devil]

bit late but just had to say ...

The first test is annoying - Ind really should have produced a better wicket for that (and other) tests i.e. one that turned a bit more and from the start. Other than that, the Ind team did what they really needed to do after what's happened in the last few series against Eng ... a few points needed making.

The last test was a surprise - nothing from Ashwin, Vijay, Pujara or Kohli and Shami and Rahane injured - good to see performances from elsewhere to win the test.

really looking forward to the Ind v Aus series now, and the one-off test against BD (should have a seamers wicket for that one given BD's twin Hasan spin threat!)

[bigfluffylemon]

Moeen isn't going to make runs in Australia given his problems playing bouncers. You could solve the problem by batting Bairstow there, but then that would probably mean finding another keeper. And Bairstow wants to keep and on the whole, probably deserves a chance to improve in that role.

You're right AC.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced it's time to drop Moeen. It sounds harsh given that he's made 4 tons in 2016, but his batting is not consistent enough for a top 6 player, and as you point out, he's going to struggle in Australia given his issues with the short ball and outside off stump. Starc and Hazlewood will destroy him.

The other issue is that he's playing as primary spinner, and offies in Australia, especially part timers, get clobbered. His inclusion has meant that England have avoided trying to look for specialist spinner for too long - he's been a stop-gap where the gap has just got longer.

Finally, I simply don't think there's room for him and Stokes in the side. You can argue that having multiple allrounders gives flexibility, allows you to bat deep and gives you more bowling options, but the evidence of the past two years says that doesn't work out in practice. Where has England's supposedly deep batting line-up been in the 8 losses and numerous collapses this year? And what's the point of playing six bowlers if one or two of them aren't bowled and some of them don't have the control to hold up an end or the penetration to get wickets?

I know some posters on this board aren't keen on Stokes, but for an English summer and then a trip to Australia, four seamers is vastly preferable, so if it's Stokes v Ali, I would pick Stokes for the year ahead.

[bigfluffylemon]

We'd really better hope that Hameed and Jennings deliver on their promising starts during the English summer, because if they don't we'll be taking debutants to Australia

[braveneutral]

Off topic but part of the reason that Northants changed their wickets was due to punitive action rather than a lack of players coming through.

[rich1uk]

we need to stop picking people that aren't good enough to get into the team in their primary role

there is a reason almost every team play a setup with 6 batsmen, a wicketkeeper and 4 bowlers, because that balance works. ideally you want one of those 6 batsmen to be able to bowl a bit and we have the luxury of stokes batting in the top 6, he has had a good year with both bat and ball for an all-rounder and hopefully can continue that.

this tour has shown we dont need 6 bowlers and for me Ali doesn't get into the side on his batting alone. he plays the odd good cameo, with the innings in this last game being a very good one, but i think we have better options as a specialist bat if he isn't needed as a bowler. the other "problem" is that its easy to say he is going to play as a specialist bat and not be used as a frontline bowler but there is no way in a real situation a captain is not going to bowl him if he thinks he needs to and we have spent the last 2 years or so saying he is our best option as a spinner so would be bizarre now if we turned round and said he is going to be in the team and not bowl.

we got ourselves into this mess imo because we kept pandering to players by passing off bad performances with the bat at #8 as not being an issue with them but because they were too good to bat at #8 and having to bat there affected their mindset. an argument that imo is complete bollox.

[hopeforthebest]

I don't believe either Moeen or Rashid are good enough to be test bowlers, there are few signs that since their inclusion they are advancing their skills. Moeen is certainly better than he was on debut but the progress he made initially has ceased. One thing that helps Moeen is that generally outside Asia, few batsmen can play spin very well. I don't regard Moeen good enough to bat in the top 6 so I see he either plays as the spin option batting at 8 or not at all. Root, Baistow and Stokes are all stroke players who's nature is to push the scoring along England need someone in there in the Collingwood-Trott mould to provide some stability. If were not careful we'll end up with a team that either wins gloriously or loses abjectly.

[bigfluffylemon]

. If were not careful we'll end up with a team that either wins gloriously or loses abjectly.

We're already there.

[rich1uk]

after the comment i made yesterday about bayliss and his focus on ODI cricket i realised that what we have been seeing this winter is a team built around the ODI principles of having alot of batting depth and multiple bowling options rather than a more traditional test side

just makes me wonder whether the reputation he had as being more of a limited overs guy is impacting the test side

[hopeforthebest]

after the comment i made yesterday about bayliss and his focus on ODI cricket i realised that what we have been seeing this winter is a team built around the ODI principles of having alot of batting depth and multiple bowling options rather than a more traditional test side

just makes me wonder whether the reputation he had as being more of a limited overs guy is impacting the test side

Thanks rich, I've been making that point almost since his appointment. Add to that, that he's been in charge 18 months and because of his returns to Oz he still has no idea of the talent or lack of it in the CC. He's one the selectors but is totally reliant on the others for suggesting names.

[yuppie]

Operation Bayliss, bring down England from the inside is nearly complete.

Well played CA, well played