England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon May 29, 2017 8:57 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:
Stokes would like to see more England players playing IPL, and that's fine for him because he was playing every game, but it hasn't done Roy and Buttler any favours... sitting on their arses ahead of a major tournament


I'm not sure playing no fc cricket is great prep for playing ODIs.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby ianp1970 » Mon May 29, 2017 9:33 pm

I can definitely see more of a case for Bairstow being brought into the team at the last minute, than there was for Ballance at CWC 2015. He is a terrific player and currently in sublime ODI form, which would probably find him a place in each of the other 7 sides.

However, this group of players has transformed our 50 over game in the last 18 months - I remember typing on here that I never thought I'd see the day we would score 400 - that it seems very hasty to change a winning formula just before the first match of a tournament.

At least when we chopped and changed previously it was because we were always rubbish, and looking to do something to improve!

This time, we are rightly one of the favoured sides, coming on the back of some great performances put in by a consistently selected XI.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon May 29, 2017 9:51 pm

Yes, I'd stick wit the top seven.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby captaincolly » Mon May 29, 2017 9:54 pm

andy wrote:I missed most of the game due to work, anyone watching this morning, was it poor batting, excellent bowling, crucial toss, or just one of those freak mornings?

Eoin Morgan criticised the pitch, said it was not suitable for ODI cricket and implied the game was lost at the toss!
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon May 29, 2017 9:58 pm

that must be why SA struggled and struggled in their innings too
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby captaincolly » Mon May 29, 2017 10:03 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:that must be why SA struggled and struggled in their innings too

:lol: Yep.
Looks as if his excuse was that batting first pretty much guaranteed a low score!

Asked if he was confident they would not have similar pitches in the upcoming tournament, he said: “I’d be disappointed if we did because any side that bats first has the potential to lose the game on the toss and in a major tournament it would be hard to take. It makes it one-sided, which I don’t think is good for anybody.”

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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Tue May 30, 2017 3:54 am

I thought England were due a bit of a shocker, but I don't think there's any need for concern. Sometimes that happens, and it can happen to the best sides. Rather today, in a dead rubber, than on Thursday, as others have said. England's batting line-up, hasn't become poor overnight. They still are the best performing batting line-up since the 2015 WC.

England know who their best XI are, and Stokes' knee notwithstanding, it looks as if they will all be fit for Thursday. I don't think they will replace Roy with Bairstow at this stage, although that's the only possible change I can see (Bairstow opens for Yorkshire on List A games, doesn't he?).

Hales, Roy, Root, Morgan, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Woakes, Rashid, Plunkett, Wood.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 30, 2017 9:36 am

The back up has two spare batters (Bairstow and Billings) and two spare pace options (Ball and Willey) but no spare spinner. So if Rashid had a poor tournament or he or Mo got injured, there is no alternative other than to replace him with a fast bowler. This seems to be a weakness in the squad, and perhaps illustrates a lack of faith in spin. Or a lot of faith in Joe Root.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby rich1uk » Tue May 30, 2017 9:41 am

you can replace an injured player i believe
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 30, 2017 9:44 am

OK. Maybe a cut off point for that though.

There's probably a good chance Bairstow and the fast bowlers will play. Doesn't feel all that likely Billings will get a game.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 30, 2017 9:54 am

A little disappointing Morgan was complaining that the Lord's pitch was too helpful for the bowlers. Personally I think competitive pitches make for better ODIs, but either way it makes his side look a little one dimensional that they were unable to adapt, or survive the short period when the ball is a useful weapon for the bowlers.

JB2 and a couple of the bowlers recovered things a bit, but really it was quite possible for them to do so much more as batting became much easier. I thought Bairstow and Willey were a bit disappointing for that reason. Plenty of good ODI sides have recovered through one of the bats and the lower order over the years. I don't excuse them from the criticism just because they scored more than the main batters.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby captaincolly » Tue May 30, 2017 10:17 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:A little disappointing Morgan was complaining that the Lord's pitch was too helpful for the bowlers. Personally I think competitive pitches make for better ODIs, but either way it makes his side look a little one dimensional that they were unable to adapt, or survive the short period when the ball is a useful weapon for the bowlers.

JB2 and a couple of the bowlers recovered things a bit, but really it was quite possible for them to do so much more as batting became much easier. I thought Bairstow and Willey were a bit disappointing for that reason. Plenty of good ODI sides have recovered through one of the bats and the lower order over the years. I don't excuse them from the criticism just because they scored more than the main batters.

I agree. Bairstow and the lower order did well to partially recover things but all got out to soft dismissals when seemingly set.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby alfie » Tue May 30, 2017 12:23 pm

Arthur makes a good point. Once the innings had been at least put back into something resembling normal cricket it would surely have been better for Bairstow and Willey ( who by then didn't look to be having too much trouble with the bowling) to set themselves to just bat the overs - and if that meant 245 , so be it. At least it would have offered some hopes of defending if - as did appear to happen to an extent - the ball did a bit again after lunch .
Instead they seemed to be still after the now usual six per over...

Does this show a bit of a lack of flexibility in the team plan ? Certainly the early bats totally failed to adapt to the conditions or the situation.

OK it is nice to say "play with no fear" and "this is just a hiccup" ...but if they get a couple of sporty pitches for NZ and Australia and play like that the show could be over pretty quickly !

Not to panic - Morgan probably just wants to sound positive ( though if it had been , oh , Cook or Moores saying that he'd have been kicked to death on here :) ) Hopefully they have taken it on board internally ; and Root probably won't go so cheaply - to a good ball - too often.

The other issue is Roy. Morgan seems to have no concerns ; but when does faith become stubborn refusal to face reality ? He may come out firing against Bangladesh... and if he does we know how devastating he can be. But what if he fails again ?Do they still keep faith for NZ and Australia ?
It isn't just his lack of runs that bothers me ; but the fact that he's had very little time in the middle for months now. He has been a strong member of a winning team but that doesn't guarantee he will find form overnight - and I wonder if it should guarantee him a place ahead of a player who looks to be in excellent form but can't find a spot ?

If Bairstow were a regular opener I'd call it an open and shut case . As it is I can see the point in maintaining the "shape" In hopes it all comes right on the night. But I feel it is far from a clear decision and if they were to make a change I would not categorize it as a knee jerk reaction or any sort of panic. Indeed if they stick with the status quo and it all goes pear shaped then criticism of pigheadedness might be hard to deflect. Given all the optimism surrounding this team I hope for the selectors' sake that whatever they do decide pays off . The English cricket public is not renowned for sympathy and understanding...

Me , I'm just about tossing a coin between batting Bairstow at three after Hales and Root or giving Roy the Bangladesh game
to find form. But I am just a little afraid that even failure against Bangladesh might not sway Morgan's faith - and I think that would be taking continuity a little too far.
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby m@tt » Tue May 30, 2017 9:11 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:OK. Maybe a cut off point for that though.

There's probably a good chance Bairstow and the fast bowlers will play. Doesn't feel all that likely Billings will get a game.

I think injury replacements can be called up at any time. In the 2011 WC, Morgan pulled out beforehand then returned mid-way through the tournament after KP got injured, whilst Tremlett, Dernbach and Rashid replaced Broad, Shahzad and Yardy midway through the tournament too - Rashid barely got there before England were knocked out!
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Re: England v South Africa ODIs, 2017.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 30, 2017 9:12 pm

OK, thanks Matt.
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