Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Slipstream » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:41 pm

bhaveshgor wrote:Find it crazy Ali not allowed at 8.
If he the best spinner he bats at 8 end of.
If he bats higher England wasting all rounder spot and playing 10 men.
They in a muddle because Ali not allowed at 8 and broad not trusted at 8 either.


Agnew saying England are looking to bat Malan after Ali.
Cook Jennings Westley Root Bairstow Stokes Ali Malan - assuming its Broad Wood Anderson as the tail :facepalm

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Dawson plays again in that 8 spot. It should be

Cook
Jennings
Westley
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Ali
Broad
Wood
Anderson
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby ianp1970 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:08 pm

Aidan11 wrote:Looks like Westley will definitely play and Malan will play only if they decide to go with an extra batsman.


IMO both need to play for two reasons:

1. Better balanced side for these 2 games.
2. If one is going to play in Brisbane, then best to find out which this summer.
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:59 pm

Malan listed at eight would be a strange selection choice. Up there with four right arm fast medium seamers in Mumbai. Or a squad of three batters who bowl spin as a second string as the spin options in India. England seem to have lost their way a bit.
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby ianp1970 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:06 pm

A batsman - who doesn't bowl! - at 8 could be considered one of the craziest selections we have ever had :panic
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Slipstream » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:03 am

ianp1970 wrote:A batsman - who doesn't bowl! - at 8 could be considered one of the craziest selections we have ever had :panic


Changed his mind now....

@Aggerscricket
If Malan plays at the Oval, likely to bat 5 and Bairstow move to 7.

As long as we don't play 6 bowlers I will be happy.
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby alfie » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:23 am

Slipstream wrote:
ianp1970 wrote:A batsman - who doesn't bowl! - at 8 could be considered one of the craziest selections we have ever had :panic


Changed his mind now....

@Aggerscricket
If Malan plays at the Oval, likely to bat 5 and Bairstow move to 7.

As long as we don't play 6 bowlers I will be happy.


It would be insane to do anything else than bat Malan at five. I know they picked Buttler in India as a non-wicketkeeping wicketkeeper at seven but hopefully that was just too much sun :)

Don't know what Agnew was drinking before his initial brainstorm ...
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:33 am

rich1uk wrote:from what i've read they didn't go with Stoneman as they wanted to keep Jennings in the opener spot and didn't want to continue with three left-handers in the top 3

Stonemercenary isn't good enough either... he's never been good enough to be an international cricketer....that should be the reason why he wasn't selected.

if you are looking for someone to routinely lash a run a ball 20 before holing out then he is your man. I'm assuming that isn't what England are looking for
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:41 am

Joe Root (Yorkshire, capt), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Jimmy Anderson (Lancashire), Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire), Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire), Alastair Cook (Essex), Liam Dawson (Hampshire), Keaton Jennings (Durham), Dawid Malan (Middlesex), Toby Roland-Jones (Middlesex), Ben Stokes (Durham), Tom Westley (Essex), Mark Wood (Durham).

Ballance out, Malan and Westley in. Given those names, I'd pick:

Cook/Jennings/Westley/Root/Moeen/Bairstow/Stokes/Dawson/Broad/Wood/Anderson.

There's a case for R-Jones over Wood but I'm not sure Wood should be left out without being given a good chance just because he's a bowler. So, if he's fully fit he stays. I don't see why Dawson shouldn't get a definitive go in the team either, though I'm tempted to give Malan a cap at five and move everyone down one.

I don't think picking someone because of the way round they bat is much of a goer. But Stoneman's fca is 34.6 and he's over thirty so he's not really demanding a chance. But then the only batters around that score at over 40 are Duckett, Livingstone and Ballance.
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby rich1uk » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:06 am

i dont think you can just look at a career average in all cases tho AC, because as someone matures and makes technical changes to their game they can improve, especially a batman where discipline, patience and temperament are so important

how someone handled pressure at 25 is not the same as how they may handle it at 30

i like to look at trends and patterns within a career and last year he made 1300+ FC runs at 47 and so far this year has made 966 FC runs at 56

surely that is more relevant to his value at this point in time than what his overall career stats are ?
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:25 am

England have had problems picking people (well, batters, they didn't pick the form spinners last winter) on short term evidence, after a good season. That's what they did with Duckett, and what they would be doing with Stoneman. And in recalling Ballance after a poor two years, they went on a month of good form. I was looking for a background trend of quality (though that would have got Hildreth picked long time ago). If I had a way of doing it, I might have set the parameter at 3-5 years rather than their whole career.
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby rich1uk » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:32 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:England have had problems picking people (well, batters, they didn't pick the form spinners last winter) on short term evidence, after a good season. That's what they did with Duckett, and what they would be doing with Stoneman. And in recalling Ballance after a poor two years, they went on a month of good form. I was looking for a background trend of quality (though that would have got Hildreth picked long time ago). If I had a way of doing it, I might have set the parameter at 3-5 years rather than their whole career.


it isn't just one good season however as he has continued his good form from last year into this

Ballance didn't just get picked on a month of form either, they knew what he was capable of from before he developed the technical issues he had and were obviously hoping that the runs he had scored this year suggested he might be the player who made all those test runs in 2014/15

you really seem to have a bit of a grudge against Ballance AC btw
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:40 am

Only in so far as as he averages 19 since the start of the summer of 2015 and has been recalled twice in that time in spite of not changing a method that has been shown not to work at international level and was selected last year when in form that didn't justify him being picked for his county.
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:43 am

In that period, Lyth, Compo, Buttler, Vince and Bell did at least a touch better but went. Hales did a lot better and was discarded.
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby rich1uk » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:53 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Only in so far as as he averages 19 since the start of the summer of 2015 and has been recalled twice in that time in spite of not changing a method that has been shown not to work at international level and was selected last year when in form that didn't justify him being picked for his county.


i agree completely he should never have been recalled last year and have said so on numerous occasions, but when you have someone who has scored heavily in test cricket before AND had the season he has in county cricket then i thought he deserved the benefit of the doubt

we've recalled people like Bopara and Bell based on alot less
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:33 am

rich1uk wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Only in so far as as he averages 19 since the start of the summer of 2015 and has been recalled twice in that time in spite of not changing a method that has been shown not to work at international level and was selected last year when in form that didn't justify him being picked for his county.


i agree completely he should never have been recalled last year and have said so on numerous occasions, but when you have someone who has scored heavily in test cricket before AND had the season he has in county cricket then i thought he deserved the benefit of the doubt

we've recalled people like Bopara and Bell based on alot less


I thought Ballance probably deserved the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately he didn't justify it.

Re: Stoneman - it's a balancing act between looking at their overall career and recent form. There's a strong case to suggest that he's been getting better as a player over the last couple of years than his career form suggests, and batsmen are often (although not invariably) at their best in their late 20s and early 30s. But he also benefits from there not being much competition who hasn't already been tried and discarded. I'd probably favour giving Robson another go, as I don't think he did an awful lot wrong the first time around and only appears to have got better.

If Malan plays, it has to be in the middle order, which means 5 or 6 given Root plays at 4. But moving Bairstow down below Stokes seems ridiculous - if Malan plays at 5, Bairstow, Stokes and Moeen should all drop a place and keep the same order. I know Bayliss thinks that batting Stokes at 6 has made him take more responsibility and made him a better bat as a result (and there is some justification for that claim), but Bairstow's still better, so should bat higher. I don't see anything wrong with batting Moeen at 8 and making him a primary spinner, with Woakes (when fit) Broad and Anderson at 9, 10, 11. But apparently Moeen doesn't want to play that way.

I reckon Wood will keep his place, but I'd be more tempted to give TRJ a go if he wasn't yet another right arm medium-fast seamer. England already have three of those, and need some variety - either express pace (which Wood used to offer but appears to have lost) or a left-armer. What happened to Mark Footitt? He was on the brink, but seems to have fallen away in recent seasons. His 2016 and 17 CC performances have been good without being mind-blowing - what happened?
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