Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

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Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14-18

Postby dan08 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:18 pm

How many of Jennings, Ballance and Dawson will survive for the next match, if any?
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Re: Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14

Postby rich1uk » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:19 pm

dan08 wrote:How many of Jennings, Ballance and Dawson will survive for the next match, if any?


not what i'd do but what i think will happen

only Dawson will be replaced
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Re: Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14

Postby dan08 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:12 pm

Stoneman, Westley, Malan or Northeast are probably next in line.
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Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14-18

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:53 pm

Unusually, England are going to the Oval next, where traditionally spin will figure. As ever my problem with the selection is that I accept reasonable chances should be given to players I have little faith in. But Wood will go and Woakes isn't coming back. I imagine England will slot R-Jones (or Ball) in for Wood and leave it at that. Maybe an Overton or a Curran will come into the squad. They won't rip up the plan with the series at 1-1. Nor should they, but if another change is made, Dawson looks most vulnerable for a better batter or a better spinner.

Cook/Jennings/Ballance/Root/Bairstow/Stokes/Moeen/Dawson/R-Jones/Broad/Anderson.

Ripping up the plan XI:
Cook/B-Drummond/Jennings/Root/Malan/Bairstow/Stokes/Moeen/R-Jones or Rashid/Broad/Anderson.
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Re: Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14

Postby westoelad » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:55 pm

rich1uk wrote:
dan08 wrote:How many of Jennings, Ballance and Dawson will survive for the next match, if any?


not what i'd do but what i think will happen

only Dawson will be replaced

Not so sure he will. They normally go with 2 spinners at the Oval but that may not be the case with the test being earlier than the norm at this venue. To be fair all of the top 4 were out to very good deliveries. In 4 tests Jennings has had a century and a 50, he came into this test not in the best of form so there's a case for persisting with him perhaps. Stoneman's form is deserving of a chance but he needs to replace Balance at 3. Wood needs rest with R-Jones apparently the only fit replacement. The remainder of the team are of proven test ability despite the present glitch.
In reality we have only 2 remaining tests to prepare for the Ashes with the W.Indies as usual in dissaray and not providing challenging opposition.
Last edited by westoelad on Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby bigfluffylemon » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:07 am

I don't know what was worse about that: the fact that it happened, or the fact that it was so utterly predictable.

England are becoming so ridiculously inconsistent in tests it's hard to know where to start in repairing it. Bayliss must be banging his head against the wall. How do you go from a 200 run win to a 340 run defeat in one week against the same team? But it was exactly the same vs South Africa in 2016, Pakistan in 2016, Australia in 2015. Good one test, awful the next. And it will continue until the batsmen work out how to take some responsibility.

I think it's premature to drop KJ, and I'd probably give Ballance a shout at 5. Although Ballance appears to be rather conveniently on the injury 'watch list' - read: the selectors now have an excuse for dropping him without looking like complete numpties for picking him at 3 in the first place. The main issue to me is that there just isn't anyone who hasn't already been tried who is making an overwhelming case for selection, and very few call-ups for the last 3-4 years have been successful anyway. I guess Stoneman or Robson could come in at 3, or to open with KJ down to 3.

Can't imagine that 2 spinners is the way forward, even at the Oval. It's still July - Oval test matches are usually played late in the summer. Dawson has to make way for a batsman.

England have a horrible recent record at the Oval, but they have a good record at Trent Bridge and hadn't been SA at Lord's since the 60's, so ground records are being torn up this year. Also, their tendency to blow hot and cold, and the general see-saw nature of England/SA series means that you can't read into this defeat what will happen at the Oval any more than Lord's was a predictor for this game.
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Re: Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14

Postby Slipstream » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:18 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Unusually, England are going to the Oval next, where traditionally spin will figure. As ever my problem with the selection is that I accept reasonable chances should be given to players I have little faith in. But Wood will go and Woakes isn't coming back. I imagine England will slot R-Jones (or Ball) in for Wood and leave it at that. Maybe an Overton or a Curran will come into the squad. They won't rip up the plan with the series at 1-1. Nor should they, but if another change is made, Dawson looks most vulnerable for a better batter or a better spinner.

Cook/Jennings/Ballance/Root/Bairstow/Stokes/Moeen/Dawson/R-Jones/Broad/Anderson.

Ripping up the plan XI:
Cook/B-Drummond/Jennings/Root/Malan/Bairstow/Stokes/Moeen/R-Jones or Rashid/Broad/Anderson.


I bet South Africa won't be playing 2 spinners at the Oval. If we play 6 bowlers again .. :strop
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Re: Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14

Postby alfie » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:54 am

Whether they wish to play two spinners or not , the six bowler plan has to go.

It isn't needed ; it doesn't work (see India tour as well) and it confers no real advantage...

Some might say if you have two or three allrounders what is the difference between lengthening the batting and strengthening the bowling ? But this is a fallacy : everyone gets to bat , so adding more players who can do that part of the game well has to have some good effect.
Not so with having an abundance of bowlers .

Consider : if you have three very good bowlers , they bowl the bulk of the overs , and two (or even one , if your bowlers are very good) somewhat lower quality chaps can give them support. Add a sixth - presumably inferior to all those - and all you really do is dilute the quality of the attack as a whole ; because your "lesser" bowler takes overs that would otherwise be bowled by your best men...
The only nominal advantage is more rest for the top men ; but since this seems generally to result in them all being out there longer it doesn't seem a very convincing argument for going down this track.
Variety ? Not really : if you have even a reasonable idea of the pitch conditions , surely you can choose the best available mix of pace and spin bowlers for the conditions. You might get it wrong occasionally ; but it works most of the time - which is why all successful teams operate with either 5/1/5 or 6/1/4.

Its not rocket science.

And of course it won't solve all the problems. But at least it will remove a self-imposed additional weakness so they can get on with finding the best players to fill the gaps...
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Re: Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:05 am

Likely to be only one chance for England stoneman for Dawson.
Balance moves to 5, Jennings 3.
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Re: Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:49 am

alfie wrote:Whether they wish to play two spinners or not , the six bowler plan has to go.

It isn't needed ; it doesn't work (see India tour as well) and it confers no real advantage...


Yet England bat down to eight (nine when Woakes returns) and of the least batters in the team, ZBGB, KJ and Dawson, two are specialist bats who could be improved without going near this argument. There's no one waiting in the wings who is probably better than the key all rounders, YJB, Mo and Stokes. I agree Dawson could be usefully replaced, but just as advantageously by a better spinner than batter.

They don't have a plan to play six bowlers, it's just that they see that as a way to get the best players in the side.
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Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14-18

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:06 am

You can tell England having a shocker when this is my first time in this series that I feel sa got a better team than England on paper.
Sa looks very strong, they don't even have a weak link barring Kuhn.
And he looks like he playing a role like chopra did for a while just waste time and allow the other batsman to score runs with old ball.

Saying that if England selected better they could have won this series.
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Re: Second Test: England v South Africa, Nottingham, July 14

Postby mikesiva » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:23 am

bhaveshgor wrote:You can tell England having a shocker when this is my first time in this series that I feel sa got a better team than England on paper.
Sa looks very strong, they don't even have a weak link barring Kuhn.
And he looks like he playing a role like chopra did for a while just waste time and allow the other batsman to score runs with old ball.

Saying that if England selected better they could have won this series.

That's a good point....

I think Kuhn's place is the only one in question in this Saffer side right now. With Rabada returning for Olivier, the question is, does South Africa persist with Kuhn, or drop him for Aidan Markham?

Possible XI....

1) Dean Elgar
2) Heino Kuhn or Aidan Markham
3) Hashim Amla
4) Quinton de Kock
5) FAF du Plessis
6) Temba Bavuma
7) Vernon Philander
8) Chris Morris
9) Kagiso Rabada
10) Kesh Maharaj
11) Morne Morkel
Nobody has a stance quite like the mighty Shivnarine....

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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby andy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:38 pm

Highly doubt they will drop Kuhn 2 matches into his test career, plus he is starting to look better, he will be fine
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby captaincolly » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:30 pm

According to The Daily Telegraph Ballance is almost certainly going to be ruled out with a broken finger and Stoneman will open with Jennings at 3. Wood is expected to be passed fit but could be "rested" while Dawson is likely to retain his place.
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Re: Third Test: England v South Africa, The Oval, July 27-31

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:36 pm

10 players in the team again for England,
Wasting the all rounders England are they really should be making better use of them and not pick awful picks like Dawson.
Even ansari in India was a waste of a pick.
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