England vs West Indies 2nd test Headingley

[Dr Cricket]

True, but you don't really have players or the media actually thinking that though.
Like you do in cricket.
That more fans calling it then players saying it is bias.
That example is more correct if you comparing it to a 50-50 decision and umpires not given it and then you start having different opinions on it.
I.e. Was it a no ball or any close decision you can get on cricket.
This is quite different really if players or media actually think teams get away with it and most of the time ICC don't help with same rules or guidelines being followed everywhere.

[backfootpunch]

The declaration was a good one

The issue was the bowling and catching that followed

Don't blame root at all

Had cook caught Braithwaite on 4 it's pretty hard to think that Windies would have got close

Broad bowled very well this test but the catching off his bowling was appalling

[alfie]

The declaration was a good one

The issue was the bowling and catching that followed

Don't blame root at all

Had cook caught Braithwaite on 4 it's pretty hard to think that Windies would have got close

Broad bowled very well this test but the catching off his bowling was appalling

Generally agree. Criticism of the declaration as "arrogant" and stupid is frankly garbage : this was the second highest successful chase at this ground in all Test history and West Indies were dismissed twice in a day only a week or so ago... Yes they could just as reasonably have batted to close of play , allowing them to attack more freely on the last day ; but the chance of getting a wicket or two against tired batsmen , and ensuring a good go with a new ball if required on the last day , made the decision to give West Indies a few overs to bat a perfectly valid choice. Did it give them a chance ? Yes , obviously. But if England had bowled and caught to the standards expected they would almost certainly have won - and surely wouldn't have lost.
Fair perhaps to suggest that Root underestimated West Indies ; and (surprisingly , since it is his home ground) misjudged the amount of help he could expect from the pitch ; but that is a long way from calling it "stupid" .

I wasn't particularly impressed with Root's captaincy on this last day ; but that is another matter. Hope this reverse doesn't act as a metaphorical albatross around his neck , coming so early in his captaincy career...

[Dr Cricket]

Isn't this the same ground that butcher got a big chase done on the final say on the ashes.
If the total is around 360 I would agree but not 320 considering that is a total any team should get on a day if they bat the day out, surely England thought of that if they can't take 10 wickets.
It is pretty obvious they didn't.
If they did think the pitch was getting diffucult to bat on they wouldn't declare early to have more overs to bowl with the new ball.
The what makes the declaration dopey was that it took draw out of the game.
It was only a wi win or England win.
It was right in warne dopey rule risk a lose to win a game which actually never really works.
Maybe England would have won if they took the catches but like wise they could have also won if wi could have been forced to bat differently with more run total pressure.

Also wouldn't total in draw games be a better guide as well.
Since most games to get win could be low total to chase.
If was really arrogance though because did Ali say wi heads dropped in the final session last night when they batted, it sound like they declared because they assumed wi would collapse.
Any other team and England would bat on for at least till end of day and maybe halfway through morning session day 5.
I really don't get why England risked a loss in a test series.
England could have really taken a draw, teams would have in the past.
Maybe because teams don't draw many these days it is seen as a sin to draw games now.
If you setting a total the Miminun reguried run rate for me should be 4.

[Dr Cricket]

Also you can't really have it both ways.
For so many years people have been complaining about the loss art of playing or batting for a draw and then when a perfect test match comes for playing a draw.
A team risks a loss to actually win a game.
Been a poor test for both captain here.
Wi for having poor final session on day 4 and root declaration.

This declaration smacks of someone being influence by the nosence talk about declaration in last few years around 380-430 set target, which is stupid considering those target seem many games won and hardly any game end in a draw.
So why declare early.
Maybe those total is more correct considering the total is a higher reach and batsman have to take more risk to win.
Can understand the critisim for cook declaration if it actually meant England drew games they should have won, but can't find that many games where England drew on the games they should have won.

[Dr Cricket]

Also Pakistan did chase 302 in 2 session in Sri Lanka in 2015.
So I would have tought that would play a part in not setting low 300 totals that with Blackwood, holder etc
That wi could realistic see off the morning session and give a t20 type chase at end of day.

[meninblue]

I like the declaration by Joe. It was correct decision. West Indies are a very poor Test team and if you cannot take chances even against them then what is the use of the strength of your own team. Where is the belief and confidence. Okay, England lost once, but major teams will win 8 out of 10 tests versus West Indies. Just because of one rare win that West Indies will get the stronger opponents should not lose the confidence, the potential, the ability and the belief in their own team. If it was South Africa or India, Australia , NZ or to a certain extent Pakistan and SL then Joe could be criticized. But you take decisions on who your opponent is. England would have gone for a draw if they had not declared, but you do not go for a draw in home conditions when you are better than the touring party. England were in a match winning position. Wasn't it Cook who was blamed for timid declarations. And Joe makes a good declaration (imo only anyways) and fans start criticizing it. I have also seen this problem with Indian captains. Piling on extra runs when there are already enough for the win already and reducing overs that the bowlers get to bowl to opposition. IN one test i was wishing England bowl us all out quickly as our captain was not declaring and wanted the batters to pile on extra runs. As if the run win margin is going to be carried to the next test and there was not much time left as well. Agreed if one keeps piling runs to fatigue the opponent bowlers and to demoralize the opponents by innings and 250 runs win. But in that test time was becoming an issue iirc.

The win however is a good win for West Indies. They hardly win any tests against top 5 ranked test teams. They do not have the quality of most of the other teams to have a good win:loss ratio. Since 2000 they have been extremely poor having won only 13 test series in last 17 years. So they need such test matches to give them a chance to show they can be good in test cricket by winning more series. Now they have the chance to win the series if they win the final test. There is still lot to prove for West Indies. If they are happy with the odd one win, then it shows how low they are rating themselves.

[meninblue]

Brathwaite at top of the order facing Jimmy, Broad, Woakes with new ball to score 134 and 95 is awesome imo. He has scored 36 runs less than Shai Hope in the test, but but weathering the new ball against two world class bowlers was crucial in setting up the platform for the middle order batters and played a significant role in this win.

[Durhamfootman]

The declaration was a good one

The issue was the bowling and catching that followed

Don't blame root at all

Had cook caught Braithwaite on 4 it's pretty hard to think that Windies would have got close

Broad bowled very well this test but the catching off his bowling was appalling

nice to see a captain who is prepared to lose in order to win. We haven't had one of those for a while

[Durhamfootman]

Also you can't really have it both ways.
For so many years people have been complaining about the loss art of playing or batting for a draw and then when a perfect test match comes for playing a draw.

big difference between this and batting long to save a test that would otherwise be lost, imo.

[sussexpob]

I like the declaration by Joe. It was correct decision. West Indies are a very poor Test team and if you cannot take chances even against them then what is the use of the strength of your own team

Since England failed to beat this team in their last meeting, Windies sides performances in comparison to England.....

Windies lost to Australia at home 2-0 in 2 tests.... England beat them 3-2
Windies lost 2-0 in Sri Lanka.... England havent played away in Sri Lanka for years, but did lose the series before this to Sri Lanka at home 1-0
Windies lost 2-0 in India in a 4 test series...... England lost 4 tests out of 5, a worse loss ratio
Windies lost 2-1 to Pakistan in UAE.... England lost 2-0 so did worse on their last tour in 15/16
Windies lost 2-1 at home to Pakistan...... England drew 2-2 but had the extra test.
Windies lost 2-0 in Australia in 3 tests.... the draw being better than England managed in their whitewash 5-0 humping

So Windies are a very poor test team, but their achievements against the same opposition arent exactly that much better, on the tours to India and Australia England have won 0/10 tests!!!!!

Do England have the right to point at WI and say they are incredibly inferior to them?

[sussexpob]

Generally agree. Criticism of the declaration as "arrogant" and stupid is frankly garbage : this was the second highest successful chase at this ground in all Test history and West Indies were dismissed twice in a day only a week or so ago...

Something like 60% of all the highest 4th innings scores in test cricket have come in the last 10 years, so the "its never happened" rubbish doesnt fly anymore. The culture and pitches have changed, people score more runs in the 4th innings now, there is a huge list of evidence that backs this up.

Windies were dismissed twice batting in a form of test cricket (in the dark) that they had never been trialed in the UK before, so I am happy not to consider any results being produced from this test as a rule moving forward.

Probably more indicative.... Windies scored just under 300, 322 (the exact target being chased here) and successfully knocked off under 200 in UAE in their last 4th innings in UAE.

So this idea the Windies were totally incapable of making 322 in a fourth innings? Only two relevant tests ago they had DONE it, and nearly did it the test before......

Crazy captaincy. I wonder if Root even knows what this team have done and are capable of

[Arthur Crabtree]

That's a significantly worse record for WI, as reflected by their terrible ranking. They've won seven Tests against traditional top eight sides this decade. They've won 4 Tests since Jan 2015, lost 15, drawn 4. England have won 16, lost 16, drawn 5. And since Jan 2015, England have beaten SA home and away and beaten Australia and SL. WI haven't beaten anyone.

This was a shock result.

[sussexpob]

That's a significantly worse record for WI, as reflected by their terrible ranking. They've won seven Tests against traditional top eight sides this decade. They've won 4 Tests since Jan 2015, lost 15, drawn 4. England have won 16, lost 16, drawn 5. And since Jan 2015, England have beaten SA home and away and beaten Australia and SL. WI haven't beaten anyone.

This was a shock result.

What they have done in a decade is not important, teams change. Since we last met them, they have lost to Pakistan, we drew... thats the basic difference on the same series we have played where we can be compared, although they have taken a game in UAE which England havent managed in 6 attempts, and came away with a 20% loss ratio in the two biggest tours in India and Australia.

I dont think we can say, where they can be compared, there is a "significant" difference.

The most significant difference is the amount of test cricket England have played compared to the Windies. That is significant.

[alfie]

Generally agree. Criticism of the declaration as "arrogant" and stupid is frankly garbage : this was the second highest successful chase at this ground in all Test history and West Indies were dismissed twice in a day only a week or so ago...

Something like 60% of all the highest 4th innings scores in test cricket have come in the last 10 years, so the "its never happened" rubbish doesnt fly anymore. The culture and pitches have changed, people score more runs in the 4th innings now, there is a huge list of evidence that backs this up.

Windies were dismissed twice batting in a form of test cricket (in the dark) that they had never been trialed in the UK before, so I am happy not to consider any results being produced from this test as a rule moving forward.

Probably more indicative.... Windies scored just under 300, 322 (the exact target being chased here) and successfully knocked off under 200 in UAE in their last 4th innings in UAE.

So this idea the Windies were totally incapable of making 322 in a fourth innings? Only two relevant tests ago they had DONE it, and nearly did it the test before......

Crazy captaincy. I wonder if Root even knows what this team have done and are capable of

Not letting you get away with that , Sussex :

I am not saying (a) that the target was impossible for West Indies due to historical precedent or past form - just that it was reasonable to suppose it rather unlikely.
Or (b) that the decision to declare was unreservedly good - the result rather proves it wasn't

I'm just saying it was hardly insane ...or disrespectful ...or arrogant . Merely a mistake. A miscalculation , if you like. Ever made one yourself ? Most of us have , at times . Doesn't make us idiots...