The Ashes: Perth.

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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby yuppie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:21 pm

sussexpob wrote:As for your response Yuppie, you said England are so poor because of Anderson, a player averaging 24 in the series.

You cant see how this statement sounds crazy?



I've stated my reason above. As long as Anderson is England's number one bowler when touring, they will struggle to win a series away, unless the conditions are similar to those he is excellent in.

We are obviously beating a dead horse here. We see this differently, lets move on.
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby sussexpob » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:28 pm

I am left thinking whats acceptable? If 24 per wicket in a series isnt good enough, then what is?

Sub 20s? Wonder how many people have managed that with 20 wickets in a series.....
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby yuppie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:34 pm

Maybe im looking at all of the performances as opposed to a number that is inflated by bowling one innings in conditions that are favorable? i see 5 wickets in bowler friendly conditions, and 3 wickets in the other 3 innings. But the horse is dead, and im just adding to this which must be really annoying for everyone else on this board.

Time for a break.
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:35 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Dr Cricket wrote:Missing something here when did broad do well in India.
Got dropped from team in 2012 and really no bowler did well this time around considering England lost twice by an innings after scoring 500.
Don’t remember any bowler having any success for England in that series.


Do you happen to remember any seamers who have torn it apart vs India away, because Broads 8 wickets in half a series puts him only 2 wickets behind Boult's (at better cost in Broads case) leading pacer haul in the last 5 years in tests in India for foreigner. Its almost like no seamer has done that well. And its almost like India spinners do hardly anything vs bigger teams away, yet destroy people in India. Its all pointing to a conclusion, but what could it be? If only I could know......


All good taking 8 wickets at 30s or what ever but he never really played any major part in that series, at no point did he look threatening, at no point did india batsman feel oh crap Broad bowling we can't lose a wicket here.
the fact he averaged 2.6 wickets a game in that tour back up the point he didn't really do that well.

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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:37 pm

I agree with sussex here. It's clear if you're actually watching the spells. Anderson and Broad are generally (day 1 Adelaide excepted) bowling well, putting the ball in the right areas, beating the bat, creating pressure, and as a result aren't going for many runs. But the Aussies are reigning themselves in rather than going after them (have you seen the run rates in this series? Warner scored a 16 of 60 balls :shock:). They know that these guys are good with the new ball, but not so good that they can always break through a player being watchful and defending when the conditions aren't helping. So what do they do? Dig in, see off the new ball, and wait until conditions are less favourable and more importantly, the b string comes on - Woakes, Ball and Ali have been very undercooked (if you think Anderson isn't great when conditions aren't helpful, just look at Woakes - utterly toothless, but without Anderson's control), they know they will get bad deliveries they can score off. It's not rocket science.

That said, the Aussies have done well, especially Warner, to play Anderson and Broad the way they have. It's against their instincts.

Re: Cook, I don't think it's a coincidence that his best period in the game, when he scored lots of big hundreds, was when Gooch was batting coach. Since he departed, he's still been a decent opener, but the hundreds, especially the big daddy hundreds, have come along much less frequently.

I'm not a betting man, but if I were I'd be dropping a few bucks on Cook calling it a day by the end of the series. It doesn't look good for him.
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:42 pm

yuppie wrote:I thought the Aussie quicks did ok in India this year.

They didnt rip it up, but they all average around 30 to 33, and before Starc got injured his SR was 50 for 5 wickets in his 2 tests. Hazelwood had SR of 79 for his 9 wickets, and Cummins in his 2 tests SR was 57 and 8 wickets. Combined they got 22 wickets in 8 innings. Certainly respectable figures for playing in India.

Yadav was the stand out quick though.

But lets talk about Perth now.


Yep Aussie pacers definitely bowled better than England did, as a fan Aussie bowlers were more of a threat and you didn't really feel safe when any of the Aussie bowlers were bowling unlike when england played when in reality I never felt like england were going to take a wicket.
No way would I class Broad a success in India, speaks volumes that he didn't even play all 5 test matches.
Broad averages 53 in india by the way Sussex,
The only time Broad took any major wickets was in the up and down visakhapatnam wicket.
Although to be fair to him that was also the only time england or broad was a threat, was actually the only time england actually gave india a scare in any of the innings barring the last innings in Rajkot.
Was too late in the end since 400 was far too many to chase in Viskhapatnam.

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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:48 pm

Although agree with Sussex main point though that people are seeing broad and Anderson off and because of that they are taking less wickets Anderson averaged something ridiculous in UAE last time around because of his economy rate but wasn't a threat with the ball in terms of wickets and didn't really win any games with the ball.
Essentially both are having insane economy rates but the lesser bowlers are going for the runs and releasing the pressure.
if England had a better 3/4 seam bowler or a Spinner broad and Anderson would definitely take more wickets.

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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:57 pm

Although Sussex wouldn't that also mean India are likely to do well overseas now, don't wanna put words in your mouth but I got the impression recently that you didn't rate Shami, Bhuvi, Yadav and ishant although with Ishant I don't blame you.

Shami, Bhuvi, Yadav all been averaging good in india and even ishant got a decent record in india.
Shami was the pick of the fast bowlers in the england series and yadav for the Australian series.

shami 10 wickets at 25 in the england series.
Umesh Yadav 8 wickets at 58 high average but like Botham said at the time he could have taken double wickets if india could catch and he did create loads of chances and bowled well.

Yadav 17 wickets at 23 against Australia in india

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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby sussexpob » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:58 pm

yuppie wrote:Maybe im looking at all of the performances as opposed to a number that is inflated by bowling one innings in conditions that are favorable? i see 5 wickets in bowler friendly conditions, and 3 wickets in the other 3 innings. But the horse is dead, and im just adding to this which must be really annoying for everyone else on this board.

Time for a break.



We seem to remember different test matches at Brisbane. I remember one in which England had Australia 200-7, Anderson had the new ball in his hand, Australia were in full retreat and one wicket from a full on rout, when Anderson pulled up after totally outclassing Smith (Smith survived a very close lbw call padding up to a variation ball Anderson done him with) and had to come off 2 or 3 overs into the new ball, leaving the field for a good 20-30 overs as the whole test match swung to Australia.

He then spent the whole of the test after that grimacing his way through overs, and only bowled a few in the 2nd dig.

He took 2/50 at Brisbane. Went for less than 2 an over.

Probably be a very different test match if Anderson hadnt pulled up and had to leave the field, even a different series. He had that lbw appeal, and he had one that totally squared up Smtih as he ended up playing it one handed with the edge ballooning up into a vacant space. Before going off, it was all England
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby sussexpob » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:09 pm

Dr Cricket wrote:Although Sussex wouldn't that also mean India are likely to do well overseas now, don't wanna put words in your mouth but I got the impression recently that you didn't rate Shami, Bhuvi, Yadav and ishant although with Ishant I don't blame you.


I omitted them all of them from my post the other day about Indias problems with their ability to perform away. They are capable seamers.
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:16 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Dr Cricket wrote:Although Sussex wouldn't that also mean India are likely to do well overseas now, don't wanna put words in your mouth but I got the impression recently that you didn't rate Shami, Bhuvi, Yadav and ishant although with Ishant I don't blame you.


I omitted them all of them from my post the other day about Indias problems with their ability to perform away. They are capable seamers.


TBH the names you mentioned in that post were hardly going to play for india unless the pacers are injured.
Although I be frank with you any injuries to Shami, Bhuvi and my optimism for india doing well overseas goes out of the window considering Ishant can't lead the attack and Yadav isn't trusted overseas and he can be expensive when not in Rhythm.

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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:48 pm

Anyway, let's talk about Perth. After the joke of a warm-up fixture, and yet more off-field shenanigans to distract England (you have to wonder if they're doing it on purpose at this point), there doesn't seem to be any clarity about England's situation going forward. So, great.

I think it's clear that England's problems are not going to be solved by selection. Bumping Bairstow up a notch or two, swapping out quicks, rearranging the batting order, it's all window dressing. The players lining up are, for better or worse, the best we have available to us at this point in time. The key is going to be getting the best out of what we have. That means Cook scoring runs, Root converting, and the bowlers creating pressure from ball 1.

England do have some comfort in that they have been competitive at points in this series. The Australian batting has looked frail. The bowling is strong but not impossible to score off if you are patient, and as the series wears on the strains on the 4-man attack will tell. The key I think for England is patience. It's no coincidence in my mind that England were successful under Flower overseas when they had a mindset of grinding the opposition down. Play long innings, and with the ball just keep drying up the runs and building the pressure. Under Bayliss, what has turned them into a pretty good ODI side is the attacking instinct that it seems that players cannot turn off in the test arena. So we see poor shots with the bat and too much short bowling with the ball trying to be aggressive. It's not working.

Perth is a very difficult place to play well, but historically that has been the case for Australians as well as touring players - those not used to the WACA's bounce have not always thrived. Players from WA usually do well, but from other states it's a bit of a toss-up. Case in point: Johnson was always a handful here, (he was man of the match in 2010, the only game Australia won), as it was his home ground. Warner loves batting here, but most of the other Australian batsmen have middling records here at best, and Lyon has averaged over 50 in his four games here.

The Perth pitch has also not been quite what it was. Two years ago it was a pathetic road that really should have been reported (I can't recall if it actually was or not, but it is interesting to note that in the run up, the curator was saying exactly the same things as have been said in the run-up to this game: that he wants a spicy wicket to replicate the WACA of old. Hahahaha. I seem to recall that being said of Adelaide too. Drop in pitches in Australia are responsible for a lot of sins. But I digress). Last year Australia suffered a humiliating loss to South Africa. So while England's record here is beyond horrible, it is not an impossible place to do well for a touring side.

It would be a brave person to bet on anything other than an Australian victory, but as we have all said all along, England are not THAT bad, and Australia are not THAT good, especially under pressure. England have underperformed so far. If they actually play to their potential, get Australia on the ropes again as they have in the past two games, and follow it up rather than let it slide, they could pull a win out of the bag. Improbable, but not completely impossible...
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby KipperJohn » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:02 am

All this discussion about the bowlers when it’s the failure of our batsmen to occupy the crease and post decent and challenging totals which has been the major problem. England’s brittle batting over the years is almost legendary and it’s getting worse. No doubt playing one day cricket at the height of the summer doesn’t help but the ability to play a long innings seems to be fast disappearing.
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:04 am

SA have won three times at Perth in the last three tours. With Ntini, Morkel, Steyn, Philander, Rabada, Kallis... WI used to win there in the days of their four man pace attack, every time. But England don't win there.

NZ won in the era of Chatfield and Hadlee.

England are outgunned.

If you want hope, look to India winning in the noughties, with Ishant, RP Singh and Pathan v Johnson, Clark and Lee.
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Re: The Ashes: Perth.

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:10 am

Only asian team to win at Perth as well, no idea how India won that.
Stopped Australia winning a record consecutive test win as well.

Surprised no zaheer Khan.

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