First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby KipperJohn » Mon May 28, 2018 2:22 pm

yuppie wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:I think his career record suggests that Jennings is an average player who happens to be in form. But at least he is in form.



Got to try something. Can not keep picking the same people if they are not performing.


Cook’s managed it a few times :)
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby Adi » Mon May 28, 2018 3:28 pm

Did not watch even a single ball nor the highlights of this. Went through the Scorecard and this looks horrible test for England.

Imam, Harris Sohail, Faheem Ashraf, Shadab Khan and Mohd. Abbas. have very little Test match experience. I guess even Dawid Malan would have played as many tests as those 5 Pak cricketers. Still think Imam and Faheem are weakness in the Pakistan team.

Shadab and Abbas have the skills for long format. Shadab can bowl lengthy spells and can beat both edges of the bat. Even he is very handy batsman.

Pak had also lost Younis Khan and Misbah in 2016 and 2017.

Inexperience was a huge factor and so was replacement of key batters - a department which has usually been Pakistan's major worry. Yet they have won with plenty of sessions to spare. Credit to Pakistan. Inzi and Mickey Arthur also deserves credit for sacking some non-performers. There has always been a huge pressure from sacked players and Pak media on team selections.

The two warm-ups and the Ireland test would have helped Pakistan to adjust to the different conditions. Tour schedule has to be praised as well. India made a mistake on SA tour not opting for any warm-up. Only later after the tour did the think tank agree that it was a mistake.

Mohd. Abbas is a promising pacer. Has the ability to seam and swing both ways and at a good pace. Not exactly Mohd. Asif but he is still a very handy bowler with the skills he possesses. He played few county matches as well which helped him a lot.


As for England the team was hugely more experienced than Pakistanis. Even the home advantage, although it has to be noted that England has lost test at Lords quite a few times to Asian teams. But he advantage of having Broad and Jimmy is huge against a inexperienced Pakistani line-up. Still the match was lost comprehensively at home.

England just do not have batting replacements of Andrew Strauss, KP, Ian Bell, Trott. Even Swann and Monty have not been replaced. The less said about the specialist spinners the better. Only Joe Root has been a standout replacement in this decade. Jonny is fine with an average of 38 considering he is better than others. From the new lot only Joe averages over 50. All the specialist batters should ideally be above 40, most of the lot being above 45 and couple in 50's. That is a great lineup which the Indian, Aussies and Saffers had. Even England had that type of batters in previous batch.

Ben Stokes is doing good as all-rounder replacement for Andrew Flintoff. Ben has 6 hundreds in 75 innings comapred to Freddies 5 in 130.Has 4 hauls of 5 and more wickets in 72 innings, compared to Freddies 3 in 137. The all roudner replacement is where England has massively succeeded.


Problem for England is two batting spots, a spinner and one specialist pacer. Usually most teams carry one weak player in playing 11, however England have far too many.


England can still look to draw the series. There are quite a few weaknesses in this Pak playing 11 as well. It is not a totally convincing team imo.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon May 28, 2018 3:41 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:I think his career record suggests that Jennings is an average player who happens to be in form. But at least he is in form.

I said this on the Durham board........ I feel that Jennings has the temperament to be a test match opener, if the technique is perhaps a little bit lacking, but he's 25 and has time to address this.

Stonemercenary has neither the temperament nor the technique to be a test match opener and he's 30, so he is probably already the best he can be and he isn't going to significantly improve, imo..... and I was saying this when he was still a Durham player, so it's not just sour grapes (although there is sour grapes there, which manifests itself in the delight I feel every time he falls flat on his face)
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby sussexpob » Mon May 28, 2018 7:10 pm

So we have reverted back to a guy who spent the whole of last summer being technically outclassed.

Weirdly, things are so bad that this doesnt even p*ss me off. Good luck to him, hes at least scored some runs this year.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby Making_Splinters » Mon May 28, 2018 7:29 pm

Jennings is scoring runs, he's got two centuries this season in the LVCC and one in the 50 over stuff. The only other opener putting their hand up is Burns and he scored over half his runs for the season in one innings. Can't really see who else they could bring in.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby sussexpob » Mon May 28, 2018 7:39 pm

Small patches of form can mislead, but to be pretty fair, I am not sure many of us would make a compelling case for Jennings looking like he left much in the locker for us to discover. Against South Africa he looked like a guy with a low 30s average in first class cricket, who looked some way off the class of coping with a world class pace attack moving the ball.

Weirdly for an England player, he played well against spin in India, but against pace bowling.... well, without pulling any punches, it was tailender stuff. Didnt he average like 10 in 4 matches? In England's position they needed enough mystery about a guy not to be loaded with a dead body to carry for the rest of the summer. If last year was indicative, England have essentially guaranteed a bunny to open that they kind of have to start for 2-4 tests at the very least.

As I said though, lets give the lad another chance and see how he does.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby ianp1970 » Mon May 28, 2018 9:35 pm

m@tt wrote:Not good. Not good at all.


Buttler - poor first innings but second innings was encouraging. Still, need centuries not occasional fifties.


Doubt we'll see many centuries at 7! Certainly no more than Bairstow could produce from there...

The old middle order seemed ok - to a certain extent! - with the top order not performing. The selector(s) answer appears to be: move the batting middle order up one (well Bairstow up 2, with Stokes staying put) and replace the bowling middle order with a non-keeping WK and a debutant bowler - albeit one who batted well in the second innings.

Root and Malan (still unproven - but we have bigger fires to deal with first!) both seem a place too high, Bairstow possibly two - if Stokes is cemented at 6 - and we don't have a competent opening pair! How about trying a third opener (Gubbins?) at 3 instead...

Oh for days of Strauss, Cook, Trott, Pietersen, Bell :bow:

As an aside Matt, can your search engine calculate a percentage of total centuries scored by those from a no. 7?Even better if it can omit a non-WK/AR...
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby Making_Splinters » Mon May 28, 2018 10:39 pm

sussexpob wrote:Small patches of form can mislead, but to be pretty fair, I am not sure many of us would make a compelling case for Jennings looking like he left much in the locker for us to discover. Against South Africa he looked like a guy with a low 30s average in first class cricket, who looked some way off the class of coping with a world class pace attack moving the ball.

Weirdly for an England player, he played well against spin in India, but against pace bowling.... well, without pulling any punches, it was tailender stuff. Didnt he average like 10 in 4 matches? In England's position they needed enough mystery about a guy not to be loaded with a dead body to carry for the rest of the summer. If last year was indicative, England have essentially guaranteed a bunny to open that they kind of have to start for 2-4 tests at the very least.

As I said though, lets give the lad another chance and see how he does.


He made 120 odd against a Notts' attack that contained Broad and Ball, so he can score runs against two of the best England have to offer. Might look like a back handed compliment, but there is no one else putting their hand up at the minute.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby sussexpob » Mon May 28, 2018 10:42 pm

Making_Splinters wrote:
sussexpob wrote:Small patches of form can mislead, but to be pretty fair, I am not sure many of us would make a compelling case for Jennings looking like he left much in the locker for us to discover. Against South Africa he looked like a guy with a low 30s average in first class cricket, who looked some way off the class of coping with a world class pace attack moving the ball.

Weirdly for an England player, he played well against spin in India, but against pace bowling.... well, without pulling any punches, it was tailender stuff. Didnt he average like 10 in 4 matches? In England's position they needed enough mystery about a guy not to be loaded with a dead body to carry for the rest of the summer. If last year was indicative, England have essentially guaranteed a bunny to open that they kind of have to start for 2-4 tests at the very least.

As I said though, lets give the lad another chance and see how he does.


He made 120 odd against a Notts' attack that contained Broad and Ball, so he can score runs against two of the best England have to offer. Might look like a back handed compliment, but there is no one else putting their hand up at the minute.


Gubbins has made 99 and 100 in the only two matches hes played in FC, and has 3 50s in 5 od games..... Id say that hand is pretty up to me.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby Making_Splinters » Mon May 28, 2018 10:55 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Making_Splinters wrote:
sussexpob wrote:Small patches of form can mislead, but to be pretty fair, I am not sure many of us would make a compelling case for Jennings looking like he left much in the locker for us to discover. Against South Africa he looked like a guy with a low 30s average in first class cricket, who looked some way off the class of coping with a world class pace attack moving the ball.

Weirdly for an England player, he played well against spin in India, but against pace bowling.... well, without pulling any punches, it was tailender stuff. Didnt he average like 10 in 4 matches? In England's position they needed enough mystery about a guy not to be loaded with a dead body to carry for the rest of the summer. If last year was indicative, England have essentially guaranteed a bunny to open that they kind of have to start for 2-4 tests at the very least.

As I said though, lets give the lad another chance and see how he does.


He made 120 odd against a Notts' attack that contained Broad and Ball, so he can score runs against two of the best England have to offer. Might look like a back handed compliment, but there is no one else putting their hand up at the minute.


Gubbins has made 99 and 100 in the only two matches hes played in FC, and has 3 50s in 5 od games..... Id say that hand is pretty up to me.


Jennings has two division centuries, a LA ton and 2 LA 50s. Those 4 day centuries both came against sides with bowlers who've represented England in recent times. Gubbins on the other hand has made his runs in the second division.

Not exactly a definitive case either way really is there.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby sussexpob » Mon May 28, 2018 10:59 pm

Making_Splinters wrote:
sussexpob wrote:
Making_Splinters wrote:
sussexpob wrote:Small patches of form can mislead, but to be pretty fair, I am not sure many of us would make a compelling case for Jennings looking like he left much in the locker for us to discover. Against South Africa he looked like a guy with a low 30s average in first class cricket, who looked some way off the class of coping with a world class pace attack moving the ball.

Weirdly for an England player, he played well against spin in India, but against pace bowling.... well, without pulling any punches, it was tailender stuff. Didnt he average like 10 in 4 matches? In England's position they needed enough mystery about a guy not to be loaded with a dead body to carry for the rest of the summer. If last year was indicative, England have essentially guaranteed a bunny to open that they kind of have to start for 2-4 tests at the very least.

As I said though, lets give the lad another chance and see how he does.


He made 120 odd against a Notts' attack that contained Broad and Ball, so he can score runs against two of the best England have to offer. Might look like a back handed compliment, but there is no one else putting their hand up at the minute.


Gubbins has made 99 and 100 in the only two matches hes played in FC, and has 3 50s in 5 od games..... Id say that hand is pretty up to me.


Jennings has two division centuries, a LA ton and 2 LA 50s. Those 4 day centuries both came against sides with bowlers who've represented England in recent times. Gubbins on the other hand has made his runs in the second division.

Not exactly a definitive case either way really is there.


It comes down to unknown v relatively known. I have been clear ill give Jennings another assessment, but after last year I cant see what needs to be answered.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Tue May 29, 2018 12:03 am

I'm not overly optimistic on Jennings, but given Stoneman had to go, it was either him or Gubbins, and he has the form. Worth another shot, if only due to lack of options.

I see Vaughan's advocating for dropping Broad and keeping Wood. WTF? Not only does that make no sense in terms of their overall ability, it was the batting that let England down, yet again. For all the travails England have been having, it's been largely down to the batting being hopeless. And yet they keep banging on about the 'sameness' of the attack and how it's causing problems. Guess what, no-one minded that the attack was 'samey' when it was Anderson, Broad and Bresnan winning the Ashes in Australia - the difference then was that England posted 500+ in the three tests they won. It's a hell of a lot easier as a bowler to keep it tight and remain patient and build pressure when you have scoreboard pressure to help. When the batsmen are under no pressure, bowlers feel more urgency to try and make things happen, as the batsmen are less likely to be worried after a few overs of tight bowling restricting the scoring.

Also never mind that the England bowlers created 5-7 chances that weren't taken. On another day, Pakistan would have been all out for 230. Yet England would probably still have lost due to their batting.

Since we lost Strauss and Trott in the space of just over a year, we went from having a highly reliable, if slightly dull, top order that would regularly blunt attacks and wear them down, allowing the strokeplayers of KP, Bell and Prior to come in at 200-3 or better. Since 2013, we've consistently been 70-3 or 100-4. Often one of Root/Cook has formed a partnership with one of Stokes/Bairstow/Moeen to bail England out to a total that is somewhere close to respectable, and the bowlers have done the job in English conditions, but just as often we haven't recovered and have been thrashed. Now Cook's on his way out, Root's forgotten how to convert 50s to 100s and we're finding that we can't rely on the lower order every time.

Is this an all time low point? Maybe not all time, but it's probably the lowest point since the late 90s. England are 5 in the world, have just lost to the number 7 side, on their home soil, on an English seaming conditions, in their prime season. If they don't win next week, they'll plummet to 6 or 7 in the rankings. They go into a home season against India firm underdogs. They haven't won in eight games. They lost to a very weak West Indies side last summer. They lost in May for the first time in over 20 years.

What's more, they haven't lost to a great side, or one playing out of their skins. Pakistan are incredibly inexperienced, especially in English conditions. They didn't have any unplayable spells with the ball, or touches of genius with the bat. They just did the basics right and played competent, disciplined test match cricket that suited the conditions, held their chances and didn't do anything stupid (Safraz dismissal notwithstanding). England couldn't even manage that.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Tue May 29, 2018 12:35 am

England haven't won much at Lord's in the past five years. It's one of their worst grounds at home.

Guess what - next test we play at England's worst home ground. England's record at Headingley in the last 10 years reads P9, W2, D1, L6
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 29, 2018 8:35 am

bigfluffylemon wrote: Guess what, no-one minded that the attack was 'samey' when it was Anderson, Broad and Bresnan winning the Ashes in Australia - the difference then was that England posted 500+ in the three tests they won.


Good post, but don't forget Chris Tremlett!

Could have been an England great but for injury.
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Re: First Test: England v Pakistan, Lord's.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Tue May 29, 2018 10:55 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
bigfluffylemon wrote: Guess what, no-one minded that the attack was 'samey' when it was Anderson, Broad and Bresnan winning the Ashes in Australia - the difference then was that England posted 500+ in the three tests they won.


Good post, but don't forget Chris Tremlett!

Could have been an England great but for injury.


Thanks. Sad but true - I realised I left him out. And yes, ok, he did offer the attack something a bit different. But the point stands - he had 500+ to bowl at.
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