Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

India in Oz, NZ vs Pak in UAE, WI in Bang, Eng in SL

Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby sussexpob » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:45 am

Re: the above arguments

Alistair Cook played half a season for Essex in prep for the test series, and I challenge many to find a current player in the world who has more experience of top class bowling on English pitches. What's he done? Sod all.

We can fault modern day prep, we can lay into the Indian batsman, but one depressing stat for England is how many test matches have they played since they last beat a side that scored 300 in a game? 21 test matches. Since then, they have won 8 tests, all at home, all by bowling out the opposition for some very low totals. And thats not just India, its South Africa, the West Indies, Pakistan thrown in. This might sound great for England's bowlers, but I was in England in the dying days of July before the Edgbaston test. I drove my mum from Sussex to the midlands to see my brother.... on the drive I didnt see a live blade of grass, the country was gripped in a heatwave and a lengthy drought. The grass was yellow and dead everywhere. The BBC had news stories about whole rivers in the North of England disappearing, such was the lack of rain. India called off a day of a practice match because of the heat that week.

What pitch did we get at Birmingham the following week? Green live grass. The ball did everything, moved everywhere, and at no stage did it stop. Lets make no bones about it, England have realized their team are terrible at batting, so the only way to win is to doctor pitches to be home bankers, and that means the ball never stops swinging or seaming for the duration. If we cant bat, we will make sure the opposition cant either.

What happened in the last years ashes when the ball didnt swing? When pitches were setup to score 300-400 plus? We got annihilated. In New Zealand, they made a decent score in the first test, we lost by an innings. When Pakistan put 300 on the board in the early summer, we got annihilated. Can you remember a series like this one where every single pitch has offered lateral movement? And movement that has been consistently exaggerated, with the old ball, in sunshine, rain and cloud cover? I dont. Not in my era of watching. Lords used to be a pancake, in recent years its becoming a raging seamers wicket.

This isnt a fluke. In one of the hottest and driest calendar years in English history, not once have we got a dry wicket. Not once have we got a wicket that seems to resemble the type of weather the country has experienced. These pitches have been made this way, on purpose, to give us a chance.

So, before we hark at the Indian batters struggling, or fault them for being T20 hackers who dont have technique, I wonder how England's batters would do on pitches that were sunbaked dust bowls, that turned from day 1. Anyone remember UAE in 11-12? When the only decent score we made in the series was followed by us being bowled out for 70? We had an exceptional batting line up then, and thats what happened. Put us on those pitches now, and would we even make 100 all series?

Even in the days of long tours, proper test batting, and all that malarkey, how many Indian teams have come to England and done well in these conditions? In 1971, they played 17 tour games!!! and won 1-0...... but in the first test they were left 9 down with a lot to get (ie needing a historically large 10th wicket partnership to win) in a rain affected match. In the second they were set a target of over 400, and were 65/3 at the end, in another rain affected match. Without rain, they'd have lost the series before the deciding 3rd test.

Worth remembering too, for all of their batting might, in 2008 they also won 0-1. Anyone remember that Sreesanth wicket at Lords, when Panesar had him stone dead but the umpire didnt give it? Then it rained for the last two sessions and India escaped a drubbing? They then won the next test and took the series. The most interesting thing, in 2008 was it Tendulkar leading the charge to series victory? Was it Dravid? Nope..... Dinesh Karthik top scored for India that series. Anil Kumble scored their only batting hundred, and MS Dhoni had their highest average. Tendulkar averaged 35, Dravid 25. I think Sachin only scored runs in England when we were rubbish, in the dark depths of the 90s. When we became competitive, I dont think he did much.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby sussexpob » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:11 am

The crux is, before we tear into India, I wonder what exactly we should have expected of any touring team, let alone an Asian one, who were confronted with arguably the most consistently helpful seam bowing conditions I can remember in my lifetime watching English tests.

Woakes averages 23 at home (55 wickets). Anderson has nearly 300 wickets at 21 in the last decade in England. Broad has 250 plus with an average of 26. Put shortly, how many teams would bat well against these sorts of performers, with all the chips firmly in the bowlers hands? The fact India could in other circumstances have been 3-1 shows pretty much how damn well they have done.

Would England have stood a chance on bunsen pitches designed for raging spin, with Murali, Warne and Kumble (statistically probably similar to the above 3)??? Not a chance. Theyd have been annihilated.

And how much luck have India had? They lost all 4 tosses, and had to face the worst conditions in all tests. Look at Broad's ball to Rahul yesterday, as the commentators said, it kept so low he had no chance. The ball didnt keep low for England, but did all yesterday.

Had India batted first, would they have lost?
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:18 am

sussexpob wrote:The crux is, before we tear into India, I wonder what exactly we should have expected of any touring team, let alone an Asian one, who were confronted with arguably the most consistently helpful seam bowing conditions I can remember in my lifetime watching English tests.

Woakes averages 23 at home (55 wickets). Anderson has nearly 300 wickets at 21 in the last decade in England. Broad has 250 plus with an average of 26. Put shortly, how many teams would bat well against these sorts of performers, with all the chips firmly in the bowlers hands? The fact India could in other circumstances have been 3-1 shows pretty much how damn well they have done.

Would England have stood a chance on bunsen pitches designed for raging spin, with Murali, Warne and Kumble (statistically probably similar to the above 3)???

Not a chance. Theyd have been annihilated.


I suspect these pitches are partly to get us in the mind of four day Tests.

The pitches have been tough, but equally they were batted badly on. I call on Bairstow's first baller as an example. You're not going to make runs like that.

India have batted a little better as the series has gone on and they've applied the basics. Think back to some of those dismissals for Karthick and Rahane at Lord's and Edgbaston. Arguably, with more prep in the conditions the Tests would be played in (which can't be assumed) they would have got further sooner.

Cook has never been good in bowling conditions. And now he's past his peak.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby sussexpob » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:49 am

India's tour match with Essex involved 5 bowlers, three of which have only played one FC this year, the other two havent played any at all. Their batting line up contained only two batsman from the first team, both playing a combined 15 matches for 1 x 50, and both similar averages for the season between 17-18. And their reserve keeper....
I fail to see how playing a county B team another 10 times, on a lifeless wicket, would then prepare them to face Anderson on a raging green wicket with the ball doing everything. If counties use these games to try to give hopelessly out of form first team players a chance to find form, along with a load of Second XI fodder a chance to make an impact, then they may as well not occur. They are pointless.

Kartik scored 82 in that game.... he then scored 0, 1, 0, 20...... not sure it had any impact whatsoever. And this, as I said, is a batter who once top scored in a test series for his side in England, in a series they won.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:57 am

Yeah warm up games are useless they are actually only good if you have good preparation.
Stats actually show warm up games make no difference to results or performances.

Although the pitch was green because India threaten to walk out and so they could prepare whatever deck India wanted but the bowling attack was useless barring coles.
Got to admit it was useful for the Indian bowlers though to get radar right, awful for the batsman since they were either dismissed early and dropped for the test ie pujara or they scored runs against awful bowlers in challenging conditions and so picked to faced anderson and broad.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:58 am

I think we're advocating meaningful practice of the sort touring teams aren't getting now. In conditions that are likely to be duplicated in the Tests.

My impression is that (most) home boards started using the warm ups as a means to winning the series, and now it has become standard behaviour. I think those advocating better preparation mean that this shouldn't happen.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:00 am

Think it will annoy Kohli for a while though he couldnt finish england off in this series, not really sure how India losing this series 3-1.

With them mostly leading the batting and bowling plus fielding charts.

Going to be another 2009 ashes series where England won vast majority of the crucial moments.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby captaincolly » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:03 am

Major ECB announcement at 12pm according to Jonathan Agnew. Speculation is that it's Cook retiring.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby sussexpob » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:04 am

Dr Cricket wrote:Going to be another 2009 ashes series where England won vast majority of the crucial moments.


I think England won the series because they bat in theory to 10 (their ten has a test 170, Sharma has a best of 30).... England's lower order batters like Curran and Buttler scored runs, Indias 6-11 may have well not existed at times.

Luck plays a part. Think of how many times Buttler was dropped. Or edged/played and missed. Not seen a batter get so much luck in a while.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby sussexpob » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:05 am

captaincolly wrote:Major ECB announcement at 12pm according to Jonathan Agnew. Speculation is that it's Cook retiring.


Like I said last test, with the kid on the way now was the time.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:06 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:I think we're advocating meaningful practice of the sort touring teams aren't getting now. In conditions that are likely to be duplicated in the Tests.

My impression is that (most) home boards started using the warm ups as a means to winning the series, and now it has become standard behaviour. I think those advocating better preparation mean that this shouldn't happen.


Thing is boards shouldn’t have to threaten to walkout for something they wanted on the pitch or teams.

Bopara said it was only 3 days because bcci were not happy bopara, ten doeschate, harmer, siddle and porter plus others Didn’t play.
Think they only played afterwards because the pitch was green and India had 100 percent autority on the pitch.
But they then decided to hurt ecb and Essex on the pockets though at cut a day of the match last minute.

Personally think bcci did the right thing, to make sure they got the prep which India wanted for far too long ecb been blaming it on the counties, even though that is bull *modded* considering every overseas ashes they promise ca that they will make sure counties provide them with good warm up games.

About time boards stuff the counties a bit especially when they use the games against India and others to make some nice money without actually doing much to help the visiting teams.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:10 am

True the difference has been the lower order runs but not sure I have ever seen a team with 4 fifties in the top 6 and no hundreds win a series 3-1 before.
Think India been grubbed twice in this series can’t remember many times when a team that is 1.10 or 1.15 lose a test match let alone for it happening twice.
Haven’t been able to kill the English team when India been top and in a very strong position.

India really need to fix the lower order batting for the next cycle of away games but not really sure how it would happen with most of the pace bowlers not being able to bat much barring bhuvi.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby sussexpob » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:10 am

Dr Cricket wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:I think we're advocating meaningful practice of the sort touring teams aren't getting now. In conditions that are likely to be duplicated in the Tests.

My impression is that (most) home boards started using the warm ups as a means to winning the series, and now it has become standard behaviour. I think those advocating better preparation mean that this shouldn't happen.


Thing is boards shouldn’t have to threaten to walkout for something they wanted on the pitch or teams.

Bopara said it was only 3 days because bcci were not happy bopara, ten doeschate, harmer, siddle and porter plus others Didn’t play.
Think they only played afterwards because the pitch was green and India had 100 percent autority on the pitch.
But they then decided to hurt ecb and Essex on the pockets though at cut a day of the match last minute.

Personally think bcci did the right thing, to make sure they got the prep which India wanted for far too long ecb been blaming it on the counties, even though that is bull *modded* considering every overseas ashes they promise ca that they will make sure counties provide them with good warm up games.

About time boards stuff the counties a bit especially when they use the games against India and others to make some nice money without actually doing much to help the visiting teams.


I am firmly with AC on this one, Bhave.

I dont think the counties are doing it, I think its all part of the hostile tactics thrown in. As an away team, expect crap warm ups from under strength teams, in conditions that dont suit. I mean, check the photos of the facilities India were confronted with. Pitch that was (you are right) apparently green as green, outfield that was scorched my the weather and potentially dangerous. A proper B team with no in form players to challenge.

AC - I was answering BFL's point that we need to go back to longer tours. I dont think longer tours are needed, playing a Lions team in a 4 day game before the series would be enough. International A teams should provide the warm ups. Not only does it get your A team a decent run out and help you gauge things, it gives the away team a warm up.

But I dont think the latter factor is important at all.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby sussexpob » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:13 am

Dr Cricket wrote:True the difference has been the lower order runs but not sure I have ever seen a team with 4 fifties in the top 6 and no hundreds win a series 3-1 before.
Think India been grubbed twice in this series can’t remember many times when a team that is 1.10 or 1.15 lose a test match let alone for it happening twice.
Haven’t been able to kill the English team when India been top and in a very strong position.

India really need to fix the lower order batting for the next cycle of away games but not really sure how it would happen with most of the pace bowlers not being able to bat much barring bhuvi.


Jadeja playing would have maybe helped the situation, but he isnt a great bowler away. India will have to consider sacrificing a bowler for an all rounder though, too often 5 down = 10 down it seems.

I guess having that tail is ok had their keeper batter or Pandya scored more consistently. Karthik was pants, and pant was pants too..... no lower middle order with a long tail was the difference.

India didnt need 100s either..... a few single figures turned into 20s, a few 20s turned into 40s, and the series was theirs.... problem is, the batting isnt even functional at times. Too many batters made zero impact when a tiny contribution would have made all the difference. Hence I said yesterday, India probably would have been better for the tail to slog.
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Re: Fourth Test: England vs India 2018

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:15 am

Yeah a teams is the way to go.
Get them playing international team again and with more boards using a tours again it is time they started playing warm up games for international teams.
Counties won’t like it though remember they were partly to blame for the *modded* lions set up before, although ecb have gotten away that problem by making the 2 winter a team play against each other in England.
So WI and India both played each other rather then them facing England lions 3 times.
Allows ecb to play more teams in winter and the likes of India, Australia have 3-5 first class games in England.
Not sure counties will be pleased in losing players though for another lions games in the summer.
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