Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:29 pm

Superb work at the death from TC, and from Rashid earlier.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby andy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:30 pm

150-9 151 to win, should do it
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:31 pm

It'll rain.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby andy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:31 pm

considering its a 21 over game, i really would have got Hales in there somewhere
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby andy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:42 pm

Malinga struggling early days with this wet ball
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:44 pm

Cook and Bell wouldn't have hit their second ball for six.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:25 pm

Roy goes. Looks even-stevens now.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:02 pm

Hmm. Wrong again.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby ddb » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:41 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Hmm. Wrong again.

No way it was ever even stevens haha.

Easy England win, they are so far ahead of every other one day side and this SL side are really poor
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby sussexpob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:13 pm

bigfluffylemon wrote:I think Trott is hugely unfairly bagged out for his strike rate. In the context of when he was playing the game, it really wasn't that bad, and I think in the ODI game at the time, a strike rate of 80 was only ever so slightly below the norm


In the context of 2011, the team that won the world cup had strike rates as thus (SR's taken to a max date of 01 Jan 2012, and not inclusive of improvements as batting cultures have changed) :-

Sehwag...104
Raina...93
Dhoni..89
Gambhir..86
Tendulkar....86 (a SR from a career spanning over 20 years, and not indicative of his true modern value)
Yuvraj...88
Kohli...85 (21 at the start of the year, and no where near his peak)
Pathan...117
Ashwin..87

Average of 92.77...... Trott's career average, 77.

As a comparison, only Kallis and Clarke in the Aussie/South Africa team had SR under 80. Kallis debuted in the 90s, his SR in Trott's career span is significantly better than Trotts, and plus he took 300 ODI wickets, Trott cant claim that use with the ball. Many Aussies and Saffers go comfortably in the mid 80s to early 90s. For the best batting line ups of the day, Trott simply couldnt compare, not even the same ball park. He had a great average, but what does that mean? Its ODI cricket, it means hardly anything without a good SR.

AP mentioned Phil Mustard. How terrible was he!!! Statistically, 11 Jon Trotts v 11 Phil Mustards....

Trotts would complete 50 overs with a score of 231/6
Mustards would beat that target in 41.5 overs, having lost 9 wickets.... nice bonus NRR too
Id need an average of 21 per player to beat a team of Trott.... thats not that high.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby sussexpob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:49 pm

Alviro Patterson wrote: Trott came into the ODI setup at a time England went through something like ten different opening partnerships - Phil Mustard, Ravi Bopara, Matt Prior to name a few players with minimal success. If anything Trott's reliability allowed England to function whilst the management tried to address shortcomings in the top six.


Since 2000, specialist bats who were picked in ODIs....up to before Bayliss took over.

Rob Key....... who once said himslef he was a crap OD player. Clearly a pick based on his FC record. A slow OD batter with a low 30s average.
Jim Troughton.... averages 27 in limited overs county games. A very slow batsman, who at the time had an outstanding 4 day record.
Ed Joyce.... doesnt even strike at a run a ball in T20s, SR of 72 in 78 ODIs..... but suprise suprise, was a test candidate at the time he was picked in OZ after a few years with an excellent county record
Alistair Cook..... enough said
Alex Loudon.... .... average of 22 in county LOs.....
Michael Yardy.... average of 25 in county games, very poor SR. Picked mainly as a bowler.
Mal Loye..... picked when he was 35 or 36 to debut. A big hitter in T20, which got him the job before the 2007 world cup, never much of a 50 over standout, neither in hitting or scoring.
Luke Wright.... played almost exclusively as a 7 or 8. Not exactly sure how many huge scores he would make coming in at the end.
Samit Patel... Average of 32 and SR of 93 was perfectly acceptable
Joe Denly... billed as an aggressive hitter, turns out he was another FC youngster they wanted to try out in ODs before elevating to tests. Batted like a slug, even if he made scores.
Bairstow.... been amazing
James Taylor... averaged 42 before he retired early. SR at over 80, and I believe he had started to get that consistently rising on his return after being dropped.
Stokes.... still in the team
Moeen Ali... still in the team
Michael Lumb..... dropped after scoring a 100 on debut. Averages 55 in ODIs
Hales.... excellent performer
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby sussexpob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:03 pm

After this, we have a multitude of Keeper bats and part time bits and pieces players. Collingwood, Read, Blackwell ( whos bowling econ was 4.25 in ODIs), Anthony McGrath, Geraint Jones, Prior, Jamie Dalrymple, Paul Nixon, Mascaranes, Tim Ambrose, Davies, Kieswetter, Borthwick, Buttler, Ansari, Rikki Clarke......

Also missed Carberry, Shah, Trescothick, Vaughan

In the Bayliss era, we have Vince, Roy, Root, Duckett, Billings
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby sussexpob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:20 pm

How many of these players would we consider to have had specialist bat records, along with a high strike rate, that made them worth of selection in one day cricket??

Root, Roy, Hales, Trescothick, Collingwood, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler are all players worth of selection, and who excelled.

Lumb, Duckett and James Taylor all did well, but got less chances than they deserved.........

Those that undoubtedly failed who deserved a shot..... Luke Wright, Carberry,James Vince and Sam Billings.... although Wright and Billings have been condemned to play the majority of their games in the very late slogging overs. Billings averages 38 in four matches as an opener.

More difficult cases...... Owais Shah, but he wasnt aggressive for post 2010 standards, and he wasnt an abject failure. Samit Patel's 32 average and 90 plus SR would have won far more matches in other teams, especially with bowling. Kieswetter and Davies both averaged over 30 with very good SRs, both deserved more chances and were dropped very quickly at young ages.

The rest never should have got near the team.....

You highlight Matt Prior is an interesting choice, as his selection probably shows exactly how messed up England;s thinking was. He could keep, and he was a county batsman who was relatively aggressive, with a good FC record, so he came onto the radar and got an age to prove himself. In OD games for Sussex, he was terrible. His SR was poor, one of those few batters who could strike at similar rates in FC and OD games, so actually the opposite to his test career, he was a very cautious OD bat.... he hardly made scores of note, and had a very poor average. At the time of his selection, he was the third best keeper bat in OD we had. We picked him as a pinch hitting opener.

Since 2000, far more aggressive batsman have excelled than failed, despite getting far less chances to prove themselves.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby sussexpob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:27 pm

I wonder how many International teams would have dropped a keeper bat like Steven Davies in his early 20s, with a limited overs county record in the high 30s to low 40s for the majority of his career, and a SR of 105, after 8 matches where he averaged over 30 at comfortably over a run a ball.... My guess is zero.

Not really hard to see how England were so rubbish for years, even now you find fans defending Bell, Strauss, Cook and Trott ....
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby bigfluffylemon » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:41 pm

Yes, the Indian team had strike rates that were higher. That's why they won in 2011 and England didn't. No-one's arguing that England were a good side then. But arguing the reason that they were crap was because of their only player who scored any meaningful runs that year is ridiculous.

And the comparison of 11 Trotts to 11 Mustards is also ridiculous. No-one's arguing for a team made up entirely of Trotts. We're arguing that there is a role for a more reliable, higher averaging but lower striking player in ODIs for the rest of your faster-striking team to build an innings around. Not every game is a flat deck where every batsman performs. Sometimes surfaces are tricky, bowlers are on top and you can't hit out.

The argument about strike rates only holds true if you take wickets out of the equation. Teams have two resources that they need to optimise in limited overs games: balls and wickets. Run out of wickets, and you waste all the remaining balls you didn't face. OK, you can argue that it's only the 10th wicket that matters, but in a real game, you need people to bowl those 50 overs as well overs, so realistically once you get to 6 or 7 wickets down, you're getting into players who are primarily in the team for their bowling. In this day and age, it's likely that most of them can club a few boundaries, but they're not going to be hitting a run-a-ball 50 very often. A team of players with a top 6 who each hit a run-a-ball 32 is going to be 192/6 after 32 overs, and have 108 deliveries being faced by the players who aren't very good at batting, and have a reasonable chance of being bowled out for under 230. So you need to optimise your team so your top 6 face the majority of the deliveries.

A more realistic scenario would be 6 Trotts and 5 bowlers, v 6 Mustards and 5 bowlers. Let's be reasonably generous and say that at number 7 we have an allrounder who has an average of 20 and an SR of 100, followed by four bowlers who can give us 10 runs each at an SR of 85.

Team Trott after 50 overs: 231/4
Team Mustard: All out for 199 after 35 overs

Now let's take team Mustard, and give them two Trotts in place of two Mustards, to open the batting:

Combined team: 256/9 after exactly 50 overs. One more ball and they're all out. That's optimised for the players that we have at our disposal.

Now, clearly this is thought experiment, and you could name plenty of players who would give your team a better score than Mustard or Trott would. That's not my point. My point is that given how crap England's batting resources were in 2011, I don't believe there is a team composed of actual England players in 2011 that would have done better without Trott than the team did that had him in it.
Last edited by bigfluffylemon on Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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