Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby bigfluffylemon » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:53 pm

sussexpob wrote:How many of these players would we consider to have had specialist bat records, along with a high strike rate, that made them worth of selection in one day cricket??

Root, Roy, Hales, Trescothick, Collingwood, Stokes, Bairstow, Buttler are all players worth of selection, and who excelled.


Collingwood had a career SR of 77. All the rest of those other than Bairstow and Trescothick are post-2011 picks, and Bairstow wasn't quite there yet at that point. Neither was Taylor

Kieswetter did ok and probably deserved a better run.

Morgan and KP were legitimately the best ODI batsmen we had at the time.

Who else was there?

Prior, Bell, Cook, Strauss were the other specialist batsmen in the England set-up in 2011, no-one is defending their inclusion that I can see. Yardy was crap and picked mainly as a bowler. Patel you can make a case that his career stats were alright, but a lot of that average of 32 comes from being not out in a third of his innings - i.e. death slogging. He only passed 50 once in 22 innings and usually only contributed about 24 runs per innings. He might have deserved a better run in the side as a lower-order allrounder, but he wasn't top 6 material.

Maybe you can cobble together a hypothetical XI of players who should have been in from the counties and never got a run who would have done better, but we'll never know if they would have been able to make the step up to international level or not.

I think we can all agree that England were awful in ODIs back then, and the selection was all over the shop. But I still maintain that the player who scored 1300 runs at over 50 was not the reason we lost so many games.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Alviro Patterson » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:37 am

sussexpob wrote:
bigfluffylemon wrote:I think Trott is hugely unfairly bagged out for his strike rate. In the context of when he was playing the game, it really wasn't that bad, and I think in the ODI game at the time, a strike rate of 80 was only ever so slightly below the norm


In the context of 2011, the team that won the world cup had strike rates as thus (SR's taken to a max date of 01 Jan 2012, and not inclusive of improvements as batting cultures have changed) :-

Sehwag...104
Raina...93
Dhoni..89
Gambhir..86
Tendulkar....86 (a SR from a career spanning over 20 years, and not indicative of his true modern value)
Yuvraj...88
Kohli...85 (21 at the start of the year, and no where near his peak)
Pathan...117
Ashwin..87

Average of 92.77...... Trott's career average, 77.

As a comparison, only Kallis and Clarke in the Aussie/South Africa team had SR under 80. Kallis debuted in the 90s, his SR in Trott's career span is significantly better than Trotts, and plus he took 300 ODI wickets, Trott cant claim that use with the ball. Many Aussies and Saffers go comfortably in the mid 80s to early 90s. For the best batting line ups of the day, Trott simply couldnt compare, not even the same ball park. He had a great average, but what does that mean? Its ODI cricket, it means hardly anything without a good SR.

AP mentioned Phil Mustard. How terrible was he!!! Statistically, 11 Jon Trotts v 11 Phil Mustards....

Trotts would complete 50 overs with a score of 231/6
Mustards would beat that target in 41.5 overs, having lost 9 wickets.... nice bonus NRR too
Id need an average of 21 per player to beat a team of Trott.... thats not that high.


Jonathan Trott has hit only three sixes in his 68 ODI appearances, naturally that will have an effect on his 77 strike rate.

A similar player in Gautam Ghambir who has a strike rate of 85 in ODI cricket, has hit 17 sixes in his 147 appearances.
Michael Clarke plays 245 ODIs, averages 45 and has hit 53 sixes, but his strike rate is a mere 79.
JP Duminy has played 192 ODIs, averages 37, hits 74 sixes, but his strike-rate is a mere 84.
Shane Watson has played 190 ODIs, averaged 40.5, has a strike-rate of 90.4 but has hit 131 sixes.

Kumar Sangakarra (probably the classiest batsman I have ever seen in the flesh) has an ODI strike rate of 79 and he has played 404 ODIs in 15 years. Surprised you've not bagged him with his feeble scoring rate.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby alfie » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:03 am

bigfluffylemon wrote:I think Trott is hugely unfairly bagged out for his strike rate. In the context of when he was playing the game, it really wasn't that bad, and I think in the ODI game at the time, a strike rate of 80 was only ever so slightly below the norm.

We forget just how much batting strike rates in ODIs have moved on in this decade. Prior to 2011, the average strike rate across all games was around 5 an over or less. From 2012 on, it's been steadily climbing. That means that until about 2011, 250 was (on average) a competitive score. And to get 250, your average batsman needs a strike rate of 83. Take into account that ODI innings are not paced evenly, and strike rates tend to accelerate in the last 10, especially with wickets in hand, and there was definitely a role for an anchor player who could reliably get you 50 in 65 balls for the rest of the team to build an innings around, and ensure that the team would have wickets in hand for the final push.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ;view=year

I could name you 20 players easily who are considered very good ODI players, who have a strike rate about the same or worse than Trott. The issue is twofold, I think. Firstly, it wasn't so much Trott himself, if was the mindset that included Trott, Bell, Cook, Vaughan etc. in the team. There is room for one reliable anchor player. You don't need three. The second is that he was playing that kind of innings as ODI cricket was evolving and leaving England behind. Prior to Trott's career, only 3 England players had ever had a better career strike rate than Trott did in 2011 (qualifier - 1000 runs scored) - KP, Flintoff and Tresco. And none of them had a strike rate higher than 90. In four years since the last world cup, England now have 6 of their top 7 with a strike rate of near or over 100, and there's been hand-wringing about Joe Root with a strike rate of 90 and an average of over 50, and whether he's 'holding back' the side. The game has changed.

I took a look at Trott's top 10 innings for England. England won about half of them and lost the others. I think there's maybe two that you could make a legitimate case that if Trott had got on with it a bit more, England could have won. But in most cases where England lost, they were thumped, and Trott was the only man standing amid the rest of the batting order failing around him. Maybe there's a case that the later batters fell because they were trying to get on with it and he'd left them too much to do. But I think that's a pretty long bow to draw. In most cases, the entire England batting line up in 2011 simply didn't have the capability of scoring the runs they needed to win the game. Singling their highest averaging player, Trott, out for his strike rate as a reason is scapegoating, IMO.


Very much agree with this : nice summing up , bfl :thumb
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby alfie » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:15 am

A good comfortable win last night ? Bit too late for me with all that rain so saw none of it...but pleasing to see the England one day mob are doing the job very efficiently. Morgan seems to be putting to bed any thoughts that he might not be up to it with the bat these days : a good thing as I do think his leadership has been an important factor in their recent success . Also very handy for my fantasy team :)
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby bigfluffylemon » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:22 am

Anyway, I think we can all agree that we're glad that era is behind us and we have a winning England team for now.

Another classy knock from Morgan, great bowling from Rashid and Curran, and a clinical finish from England. The last year or so they do seem to have added a level of maturity to the undoubted explosive talent that they have. The question after every ODI now seems to be: what about the World Cup. Can we do it there? Every team, no matter how good, can have off days (except perhaps the 2007 Australians) - what happens if we have an off day in the knockouts of the WC?
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:53 am

Morgan was flirting with being left out around the time of the last WC, but has responded well. It's not easy to hold onto a place in this batting order (see Hales), but he is a must-have, even without his captain's role.

Global stats for ODI batters since the start of 2017.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby sussexpob » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:17 am

Patel you can make a case that his career stats were alright, but a lot of that average of 32 comes from being not out in a third of his innings - i.e. death slogging. He only passed 50 once in 22 innings and usually only contributed about 24 runs per innings. He might have deserved a better run in the side as a lower-order allrounder, but he wasn't top 6 material.


Probably worth noting, that a player coming into a match say at the 40 over mark at "the death", would only get roughly 30 balls to score a 50. Paul Collingwood held the ODI record for nearly a decade for England's fastest ODI fifty, at 24 balls (Morgan recently beat it). TO say he "only passed 50 x amount of times", as a death batter, or that he made little contributions..... well, what do you expect? You either break all time batting records, or you put a few on the board quickly, which he seemed to achieve. Samit Patel is actually a wonderful example. It has been said on this thread, as it was at the time, that England needed anchors, because they crumpled in a heap all the time and got all out a lot....

Samit Patel, who played 7 or above in every game he was picked, was not required to bat in nearly 40% of matches he was picked. In a further 20% of games, he was not out. The longest not out score in his most played/lowest slot was 29 balls at position 7. That is a whopping 60% of games that England left their top SR player in the order stranded, having not impacted the game to his full potential. You say Patel wasnt a top 6? He played 4 matches at 5-6..... averages 125, with a SR of about 150..... all of those against the best team of the day, India, and I do believe all way in India (in fact, Samit was only dismissed twice against any team other than South Africa and India, the two best ranked sides of the day... he hardly ever played a ODI against a lower opposition).

Interestingly enough, his best score at 6 was a 70 odd of 43 balls in India in 2011.... England lost the game with 3 balls to spare, after India chased 300 dead. Trott scored 98* of a low 80s SR...... England left Bairstow (105 SR), Bresnan (91), Swann (90) without facing a ball.... they left runs on the bench that lost them the game.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby sussexpob » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:25 am

bigfluffylemon wrote: Collingwood had a career SR of 77


The latter part of his career, he pushed this number up significantly. ODIs change about the time that T20s come to the fore, id say a significant shift in attitude occurs after the 2007 world cup.... about the time Trott starts his ODI career, in fact.

umar Sangakarra (probably the classiest batsman I have ever seen in the flesh) has an ODI strike rate of 79 and he has played 404 ODIs in 15 years. Surprised you've not bagged him with his feeble scoring rate.


84-85SR in the second half of his career.

Jonathan Trott has hit only three sixes in his 68 ODI appearances, naturally that will have an effect on his 77 strike rate.


Not really sure why the proportion of sixes matters at all. The net effect is, overall strike rate...how you get them matters zero.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby sussexpob » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:32 am

bigfluffylemon wrote: My point is that given how crap England's batting resources were in 2011, I don't believe there is a team composed of actual England players in 2011 that would have done better without Trott than the team did that had him in it.


A top 6 line up, composed of limited overs internationals capped by 2011

Alex Hales
Jonny Bairstow
Ben Stokes
Jos Buttler
Eoin Morgan
Kevin Pietersen

Looks pretty much like an England ODI all time XI.... clearly we had terrible resources at the time
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby meninblue » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:14 pm

England needed Trotts runs. The average of 51 is awesome for an England player in those times. His SR of 77 is bad but given the situation I guess England needed his runs more. Everyone scoring an average of 35 runs at SR 85 won't be enough for posting or chasing big totals. IMO KP had the best average and SR combo amongst England team and he would get into most ODI teams apart fron India. Morgan had a good average and sr combo. Trotts runs were very important for whatever little success England had. He covered his bad sr into run a ball one in most 100 he scored. Even the overall sr of 77 is not too bad if one player in team is averaging 51 runs. IMO he was one of the top 2 players in England PDI batting department and maybe fell into top 3 when Morgan was in form.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:30 am

England have replaced Bairstow with Trott. I mean Hales.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:37 am

Fine start by Woakes of England. Stifling runs and then gets Samarawickrama. Woakes strikes yet again in the first ten overs.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:54 am

Something doing very wrong. No rain breaks.

SL on for 280 if they can keep wickets in the bank.
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby budgetmeansbudget » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:20 am

I don't follow cricket as much as the rest of you guys, but I must admit Olly Stone has passed me by.

And judging by that last I'm not surprised!
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Re: Eng in SL, LO series, Oct 10-27

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:33 am

good comeback though, seemingly, with just 5 and 6 off his last 2 overs
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