India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:46 pm

But the difference being that the popularity (and share of the ICC cake) of the game being in decline around the world other than in India, who dominate the wealth and power off the field. That was never true of the West Indies and Australia.

Maybe China will challenge in years to come...

But, India aren't there yet of course.
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:07 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:But the difference being that the popularity (and share of the ICC cake) of the game being in decline around the world other than in India, who dominate the wealth and power off the field. That was never true of the West Indies and Australia


Indeed. India find themselves in a 1958 Brazilian Football team scenario, where they are biggest country by population that cares about the sport, they care a great deal about it, and they are ahead of the game in administration off the field. Its often said that the 1958 to 1970 domination of World Football by the Brazilians was paved by them making strides in the area of player health and fitness that others didnt. Once you apply the best systems to the best potential systems, you get an end product that is almost impossible to beat.

The same is actually true of the West Indies. It has been stated widely in literature about that team that they were lightyears ahead on off field preparation to the other teams around. English players were busy flying planes over grounds when they probably should have been working, or Aussies warming up for key series trying to beat the "how many beers can you down on the QF01 between London and Sydney" game. The Windies players were drilled to be fit as a fiddles, and didnt engage in that. It made a very large difference.

Hence my point in the OP I made on the subject; in order to realistically compete, other teams in world cricket need to get things right, they need to find other ways to innovate. If everyone mirrors the same systems (which is in itself impossible due to relative economic standpoints), then weight of numbers will no doubt naturally lead to more instances of quality and depth for India. And there is the problem; the other boards are in disarray. They arent administrating the game to even a decent level, let alone setting trailblazing systems in place that carry them into higher planes of operation.

In fact, when you look at something like football, you tend to find that investment has a lot to do with the emergence of smaller teams. Iceland famously beat England in a tournament, but when you see the per capita spend and facilities accessible to Icelandic people, its not actually a wonder they punch above their weight. They decided to make football their national sport and to invest solely on that, and have world class facilities accessible to every one. The Dutch miracle was fueled by (at the time) unbelievable levels of investment in youth football. As was the Germans and the French. Sometimes its cultural. Someone like Croatia seem to produce staggering amounts of diminutive midfielders with bags of skills, as the way they teach the game at youth level is focused on particular skills. Belgium is going through a golden era (but then again, its a country that is severely divided, and investment in youth football and national team success is paramount to nationalistic feelings).... but then again, all these instances are of First World economic powerhouses applying new age techniques that cant be matched by nations of lesser economic resources. Brazil bring masses to the table, but it doesnt bring world class facilities into favellas. So smaller, richer countries that invest time and effort can catch up. No one can do that with India, they are a behemoth.

Sadly, in cricket, the only team that tends to have this sort of x-factor is Sri Lanka. They seem to have produced the most unorthodox cricketers, but since Mendis its probably stopped. Cricket seems a bit cut and paste, and new pathway systems are designed to coach out oddities in actions or oddities in batting techniques. Maybe someone might try something off the wall different that might work? But as it stands, if teams try to mirror what India are doing without the same resources, I can only see India becoming dominant.
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:46 pm

alfie wrote:However I wonder if people aren't getting just a little carried away heralding a future of Complete Indian Domination. Beating this - rather impoverished - Australian side deserves credit but perhaps doesn't yet prove they have become an all-conditions super team


The first Indian win in Australia just seems like a symptom of something I would have predicted regardless had Australia annihilated India 4-0.

We are beginning to see the effect of the IPL era on the game, and what seems to have occurred is that other boards outside India are adopting rather aggressive business models for the national game, in order to try to lessen the impact of India's rise in economic power (and therefore power in general). The trend for good pay days through T20 cricket means the average player would probably be better off just trawling as many of the worlds T20 competitions they can, than build a 100 test career with their given country. The boards know this and have reacted to this, especially in OZ/England were the price put on a board playing contract has risen sharply. Investment in the team and wages go hand in hand with pressure from the IPL. Boards know successful players loyalty is challenged through cash. They have no choice but to offer this money.

This money comes at a price, and often becomes a determent to the game on the domestic level. In England, there is no free to air cricket. Ticket prices are going up past the stretches of most pockets. The counties are struggling to pay their wage bills. And yet the ECB is currently spending all of its cash reserves trying to push ever further into the world of money generation. What you are left with is players earning more, TV company's paying more (and charging their customers more).... but less people going to games. Less people showing an interest. And so on. The IPL is forcing boards to take damaging courses of action on their own domestic scene. In 1990 we didnt have to pay to watch test matches on TV. Tickets were more affordable. Counties were in a better shape, and had top players turning out..... yet the damaging result of generating more money is now you have none of those things, and the players earning more comes straight out of the fans pockets, so its not exactly in their interests.

And through all this, the BCCI get stronger as other boards get weaker. Something has to give. If the 100 goes wrong, the ECB might be bankrupt, and all indications are that its a massively unpopular format. Ticket sales are down in Australia, and you might find faith lost in the Smith affair has serious long term repercussions, especially if quality continues to decline. If they re-pick Smith to save results, you might find fans are lost. Its a delicate time for these two powerhouses, and they are probably in much better relative shape to other less wealthy boards.

The stage is very much set for India to dominate, and for a long time. If they dont, it would be an abject failure on their part (which in frankness, you really have to say for the last 20-30 years, they have failed pretty badly considering the position of the game there).
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby bigfluffylemon » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:03 am

alfie wrote:Aargh. Somehow put this (above) on the wrong thread ...don't know how :stupid


I'm too lazy to write it all again on the right one. So to continue on the Other Matter...

Indeed congratulations to India on a fine win. As has been said , their first in Australia ( although I do well recall 1985 where they were definitely robbed of a deserved and emphatic victory by a badly timed weather wipeout : Melbourne rather than Sydney that time . Sometimes very patriotic , Australian weather :) )


They were robbed of at least a draw if not a win in 07/08 by some very questionable umpiring.
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby meninblue » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:56 am

Indian cricket administration is in massive trouble with supreme court rulings and the governance body (CoA) supervising the BCCI. There are massive difference of opinions between the BCCI board, especially with Shashank Manohar. Right from selection of women team coach and mens senior team coach, to Rajiv Shukla isssue where his assistant Safi was under criticism regarding the issue and had to resign immediately following severe allegations of monetary gains / sex as favor for selection, fake age certificates. Monetary gains for selection has been one of the age old issue some proportions as cricket is number one sport in India. Worse one of cricketers parent came ahead and said she was asked to give in to the demands so that her kid could be selected. So in no ways the administration is even upto acceptable levels. BCCI GM operations (ex-wkt keeper Syed Kirmani) informed various state cricket boards about postponement of Cooch Behar trophy and womens games because lack of umpires.There was also a controversy regarding umpiring exams and another exam was conducted. One faction of board snubs the others and vice versa as and when they have upper hand. Actually Indian cricket administrations is in huge mess which even lot of Indian cricket fans are not aware of. BCCI is feeding commentators and others so that nobody speaks on some aspects. The money that they pay to commentators and others is too much and there are rare few who will speak up with general administration issues or the selection issues.

Having said that there are good things that they have done...which is their job after all.
(1) Created IPL which is now the top T20 cricket franchisee tournament.

(2)Marketed broadcast rights for all Indian cricket matches getting the best of price in return for rights.

(3)The domestic cricket imo is one of the best in terms of the number of tournaments and the interest of massive Indian population in club cricket, school tournaments (Harris shield and Giles shield), university tournaments, independent T20 tournaments of every cricketing state / city.

Then a good structure of Under 14, U16,U19, U23, Ranji and other LIST A tournaments.

(4)Addition of 9 Ranji teams which will provide some more players from this PLATE group teams. The quality of PLATE or 9 newly added teams is bad right now but it will certainly show fruits in next 10 years.

(5)Cricket being a very good career option for Indians for cricketers, umpires, groundsmen, match referees, coaches, physios,team managers, assistant coaches etc. Certifications though with some challenges are in place for umpires and coaches.

(6)NCA at Bangalore with world renowned coaches from Indian and abroad, the MRF pace academy, are all showing the benefits now.



(7)Increased Under 19-List A matches with other cricketing teams like we had Under 19 cricket trophy in Asia, Asia emerging teams cup, the increased LIST A senior tours are all making our cricketers more match fit and more prepared.


(8)Appointment of Rahul Dravid as U-19 coach was a masterstroke imo.

(9)The process for team selection is well charted but there are some exceptions which are happening which raises criticism. With more media criticism this will be kept under control with just one or two player selections.

(10)Policies like 3 guest players in domestic format and revision of selection rules in case parents employed with government get transferred to other states etc are incorporated. Latest example of guest player being Aryan Bangar, son of current assistant Indian coach Sanjay Bangar getting NOC from MCA (Mumbai cricket association) to move and play for Puducherry in Under-19 team.


There are obviously some pros and cons i have missed but i will mention as soon as i think more on this.

With cricket achieving status like a profession and becoming like an well established corporate, we see scams and issues as in many companies across world ranging from fraud to misconduct to irregularities. However, we are also seeing the positive effects of more money inflows into this cricket corporate. BCCI is now just like another corporate body with more money centric and professional business outlook , obviously with cricket as its core business competing with other similar entities around the globe with their own pros and cons. I hope we get rid of some of the cons. Can't get rid of every con because the massive profit will have some of the negative impacts as well. Right now BCCI is way ahead in some aspects and other boards are way ahead of BCCI in some aspects but BCCI still manages to lead given the importance and following of the game of cricket in India, which it is using well to market the product.

The general cricket fans reaction is other boards were no saints and we were feeling the heat when power was in their hands, so we need some strong board members to deal even though they are not clean. We need experienced people within our board with their pros and cons to compete against other boards with members who have exhibited their pros and cons. No wonder some of the powerful board members who had pros and cons were criticized as well as praised.

Not to mention the various PR stuff things that happen which every cricketing body and most players have to build up fanfare and media stuff regarding various things.
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby meninblue » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:19 am

Whether India will maintain No1. rankings / dominate in tests for few more years or decade remains to be seen. There is a very large number of high quality cricketers coming from age group to FC and LIST A tours. If the selection committee is totally unbiased and has eye for talent then definitely Virat will have much stronger team.

We have four tough overseas wins this century: 2004 - Pakistan, 2007 - England, 2009 - NZ and 2019 - Australia. Think with the status of game of cricket has in India and other factors i mentioned in previous post, i do feel we should have won more than 4 tough test series away from India in last 19 years. I would say we have a backlog and we have to clear that first and break even. Virat is now into 5th year of captaincy, he has won one tough test series. I would expect more tough wins before i would say, we are dominating. Just because others are not winning overseas and we are winning more should not be the benchmark. Once we win more number of tough tours on basis of what our resource pool and significance this game of cricket has, only then we are dominating. Are we having resources to dominate in cricket, i would say yes there is talent and much better cricket path to enhance the talent that we have. Whether we will select proper resources in various stages of age cricket ? I doubt. We still continue to see purposeful bias. If the challenges are overcome we will realize more tough series win that 4 in 19 years in test cricket away from home. Also, if other cricket teams raise up their entire system and selection, it will be a challenge for Team India. Only time will tell whether India continue to dominate or not. More important to me is are we realizing our potential or just winning more than others.

Prithvi Shaw is an example of talent being available developed well and cricketer doing well to be selected for test level.
Well managed in all aspects. He has done wonderful things since his mother passed away very early in his childhood days and his father brought him up. Top performer in school tournaments. Now lets have a look at his age group development where he has scored very good more often than not. 2017 and 2018 was the career changer.

Date of Birth - 9th November 1999

Mumbai Under 16 in 2012 - 2013
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Mumbai Under 19 in 2015 - 2016
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IPL (Delhi Daredevils, now Delhi Capitals), India A ,Under 19 World Cup, Team India in 2018 - 2019

Is he the only one cricketer who has talent and has been managed like this. No. There are more cricketers that Mumbai have at age group level. The one being fast tracked is Arjun Tendulkar and i guess we will see him in Ranji and LIST A in couple of years. He is 1999 born. There are others too ( Musheer Khan, Atharva Ankolekar, Yashasvi Jaiswal, Suryansh Shedge, Pragnesh Kanpillewar, Himanshi, Divyaansh, Minad Manjrekar,Arman Jaffer (Wasim Jaffer's nephew) who are doing well for Mumbai and can be developed considering skill requirements of national team. Armaan Jaffer did not shine though in the one Ranji match we played recently. Hope some of this will make our Ranji squad stronger which is on decline. What Mumbai lacks is good fully fit pace bowlers like other teams and batsmen who score big runs. Yes,Prithvi Shaw, Shreyas Iyer, Rohti Sharma, Ajinkya Rahane, Shardul Thakur (bowler) were missing but we should not be in this position even without them. That is why i repeat selection and development is key. Having players is not enough. The point i am making is the lower level coaches and selectors need to be good as well to provide the resources to let the Indian cricket system operate with top efficient.

When we consider other cricketing associations, they too have some wonderful talent, provided the age group coaches / selectors are unbiased they will help them progress.It is upto the coaches and selectors but somehow they are not giving Virat Kohli the best of teams . That is why he is not winning more tough test series. The other challenge i see who is the next test captain if Virat is injured. Ajinkya' s place is not even secure, he is being played / holding place more on hope now that he will come back in form. If some aspects are handled well then senior team can dominate more.
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:37 am

I suppose the important factors are rumours of match fixing and (as implied by Death of a Gentleman) financial corruption.

And preferment skewed by nepotism or regional partiality.
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:45 am

India had a few average years brought about by the loss of the Kumble-Dravid generation and have rebuilt well and are at the peak of a cycle. Maybe only NZ are otherwise at that point. That will change. The possibility of a game unbalanced by India's dominance is still notional at this point.
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:58 am

Not sure why India should be subjected to a different standard to other teams. When I think back to the teams that are rated as the best ever, how many of these consistently achieved performance away from home?

1948 Invincible? Isolated to one tour, yes they did. Not a single player ever toured outside England though. Long tours, lots of prep. England had lost a lot of players to Nazi bullets in the few years before. Doesnt really feel like it counts as a comparison. How would these boys have coped with a tour in the heat of Delhi, in alien conditions and cultures, on spinning tracks?

Windies of late 70s to mid 90s ...

India.... won one tour in four visits.
Sri Lanka..... failed to win a FC game.
Pakistan... won 1 of 5 tours between 1980 and 1996. Lost 3-0 in the last, won 1-0 in the first, then threw draws
New Zealand.... lost 1 tour, drew 2 others.
South Africa.... didnt play them until after the period.

Australia.... won in 1979/80, although this was a last minute set of games arranged due to a compromise between CA and WSC. Many people have called for this series to be discredited as tests (the Ashes matches of the same year with a touring English side are not officially recognised as Ashes games anymore). Drew in 1982/83. Won two tours, lost one after. This is in a period that Australia's consider a dark age for Aussie cricket.

England... yeah, they annihilated England. While by pure definition England was a Windies away series, how many of their team lived in England and played decades of county cricket (all?). These tours also lasted the whole English summer. In both regards, they provide comfortable conditions no other away team has ever been afforded.

Even the Glorious Australians of late 90s to 2005 lost in England, Sri Lanka, one only one test in Pakistan, lost twice to India, nearly lost a test to a hapless BD team, drew in NZ in a 3 test series, and failed to beat a very fading West Indian force that by then was just Brian Lara and two legendary paceman at the very end of their powers.
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:14 am

Cricket is pretty unique in sport as a challenge for away teams due to the fact that the nature of the game and the way it is played has to adapt so much to conditions at hand. No one really in the history of the game can prove they have consistently dominated for a period, maintaining their form away from home at the top level. The best teams can only hope to win more than they lose away, and greatness seems more defined in not losing that much away, and annihilating teams in friendly conditions.

In this regard, the only comparison I can think of is with South American football. In the Qualification for World Cups, teams like Argentina have to leave the relatively mild and flat Pampas of Buenos Aires, and go play at 4,000 meters altitude in Bolivia. The ball reacts differently in the thin air, the game takes a different tone, teams cant run as much as they lose fitness. As a comparison, it seems the only parallel I can draw with the challenge of an away test.

In the time since Brazil last beat Bolivia away, by far the worst performing team in Latin American football, Brazil have won 5 Copa America championships with 3 runners up medals. They have made 3 world cup finals winning 2, with two additional semi finals appearances. They have won the FIFA best team in the world (which only came into existence in the early 90s) 13 times. They have about 20 Olympics and Pan American medals, some of which are gold.

Did the 1994 Brazilian team not dominate? They only managed to beat one team away in the SA qualification that time round out of 9 other countries. Christ, come to think of it the Argentinian team that made it all the way to the World Cup Final of 2014, and lost only at the end of extra time in a game they should of won, got annihilated by Bolivia 6-1 away.

Playing away is damn tough when you have to redefine the way you have always played to suit conditions.

How many Australia teams have won in India? England have hardly done it as well. Its not like its common at all to see it achieved. India havent lost at home for 6 years, and that was in a period of deep transition where a lot of legends had either left the team in quick succession, or were way past their best like Sachin. Is this not domination?
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby meninblue » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:26 pm

alfie wrote:Aargh. Somehow put this (above) on the wrong thread ...don't know how :stupid


I'm too lazy to write it all again on the right one. So to continue on the Other Matter...

Indeed congratulations to India on a fine win. As has been said , their first in Australia ( although I do well recall 1985 where they were definitely robbed of a deserved and emphatic victory by a badly timed weather wipeout : Melbourne rather than Sydney that time . Sometimes very patriotic , Australian weather :) )

However I wonder if people aren't getting just a little carried away heralding a future of Complete Indian Domination. Beating this - rather impoverished - Australian side deserves credit but perhaps doesn't yet prove they have become an all-conditions super team. 1-2 in SA. , 1-4 in England : yes they were competitive in some of those losses ; but they still lost. I think they are improving ; and they have a splendid home record , of course : but I prefer to wait and see how the next year or so treats them before opening Canonization proceedings...
As for predictions involving "decades" : well history tells me all good things come to an end eventually and I will be surprised if any team manages to remain top of the heap for that long. West Indies had a brilliant run for nearly 15 years , and so subsequently did Australia...but longer than that ?

Who knows : I may well be wrong : remind me in ten years if I'm still around and we will see :)


Definitely not carried away with this win.

Time will tell if it is future domination. Domination will be subjective regarding the wins. For me we should win a lot more overseas tours especially in sena (South Africa we are yet to win a test series, England, NZ and Australia) countries. To dominate is to win ruthlessly irrespective of conditions I don't think it will be easy to dominate in Sena; we never have dominated Sena teams even in this golden phase. Even if we win 50 percent in Sena it with be a big upgrade. That can be said to be relative domination considering other teams are not winning overseas as well. 4 tough test series wins overseas in 19 years is not domination imo. No team has shown that capability. But that does not mean because others have failed to dominate in cricket overseas our team should not. Being a Indian fan I hope we change the things given the resources and potential that we have in our country. We are doing relatively much better than any other team, but certainly not to the extent a dominating team should do overseas
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby sussexpob » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:46 am

Looks like pandya and Rahul are going to be banned after making sexist comments on an Indian talkshow. I can't actually find what was specifically said, but it seems to stem from pandya bragging about how much tail he can chase at once. Kohli didn't look happy as he tore into them at his preseries presser
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby GarlicJam » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:28 am

I see the name Rahul and I think of Dravid - yes, I know there are millions of Rahuls around, I've known a couple even - and it is hard to think of Rahul Dravid doing anything that would be considered untoward.
Maybe




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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby backfootpunch » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:27 am

Hard to believe how dhoni is playing

Honestly picking him not pant could be the difference between India winning the world cup or not
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Re: India tour of Australia, Nov 21 - Jan 18

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:17 am

Australia batting like it's 1999. SRs of 70 odd all round.
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