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Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:25 pm
by sussexpob
Arthur Crabtree wrote:On the other hand... he hardly plays. Touring itself is hard emotionally and physically. The training may well be hard, but that should make him better able to handle the work. But he is a single format player and hardly plays fc cricket. So that should keep the tank fuller than it might be. I don't think he wanted to give up the other formats, but it must have helped him to continue and also escape the wear and tear that weakens many pace bowlers.


As a great comparison, the last great fast bowler to turn out for Lancashire for the majority of his career was Wasim Akram. Jimmy is about one season away from equaling the amount of first class games Wasim played, despite Wasim being a 100 test plus Pakistan player, and him playing 11 full seasons of county cricket. Wasim holds the record for the most ODIs for a specialist front line bowler...... the extra 200 odd ODIs in terms of balls bowled is completely offset by Anderson's bigger test haul.... they have both bowled pretty identical amounts of international and first class balls.

This pretty much rings true with everyone you could look into, save for Courtney Walsh who seemed to bowl an insane amount in FC cricket and is miles ahead, and Donald, who isnt a great example because he spent 7 years of his career not being able to play at the top level, and he therefore took contracts to play everywhere to make the money. After those two, there is a glut around the 50,000 mark that Anderson is a part of.... Vaas, McGrath, Pollock, Wasim. With all of them you find the aforementioned names played 300-350 ODIs and 100 odd tests, but without getting the calculator out to check 100%, they all pretty much topped around the 40,000 and are level with Anderson in terms of International balls bowled. To use Mcgrath as an example, he played 75 extra ODIs than Anderson, but that only equates to about 12 extra tests when factoring how much each bowled on average. Go the other way, and playing 25 tests = 150..... so Anderson could have ended his test career 2 years ago continuing to play ODI cricket, and for what hes bowled, he'd retire in total balls somewhere near Akram at the top of the ODI all time list, and still be in the top 5 of all time test bowlers.

Far from not playing much, he's pretty much blasted every single person in his direct era for balls sent down at the top level.... and he's now in a club which suggests a glut of players who make the 40,000 mark, then retire. The tank must be pretty empty

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:34 pm
by sussexpob
The bottom line is, its impossible to play a full career of three format cricket and get to the number in each that Anderson has reached. The only example that springs to mind is Dale Steyn... hes played over 50 less tests, 70 odd less ODIs and only about 20 more T20s. They debuted about a year away from each other. Steyn has been injured a lot, and had to retire from ODIs when he was 31 to play in other forms. Is it possible to play 100 tests, 200 ODIs and 50 T20s? I think no. I think anyone who attempts it would just run themselves into the ground as a pacer.

Look at Broad. He's dropped nearly 10 mph of pace in his late 20s. He cant get in the team now.

Id love to see Andersons stats in back to back tests since 2013 ish. Ive always thought in back to back tests he performs worse in the second match, but it would take me hours to prove it in stats.

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:48 pm
by bigfluffylemon
Good analysis sussex.

I'd also add that Anderson is probably running out of fire for the game, as he has very little left to achieve. He's already got more wickets and more tests than any other England or quick bowler in history. He's beaten every team at home, and most away (Pakistan and the West Indies are the major blots on England's away record in his career - technically he was part of the successful 2004 squad in the Caribbean, but he didn't actually play a game, so doesn't really count). England losing in UAE last time around was hardly his fault - he was easily England's best bowler on display. You could make a strong case for his inclusion in an all-time England XI playing at home. He's been touring constantly for 15 years. Given his achievements, and the fact that the batting in this side keeps undermining his hard work, I'd understand if he was getting a bit fed up with it all.

Meanwhile, cricinfo reports that England are considering dropping Foakes in favour of bringing in Broad or Woakes. Because that's just what we need - 77 all out, so drop a batsman (man of the series in the last series) in favour of a bowler. :Nooooo

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:37 pm
by Arthur Crabtree
bigfluffylemon wrote:
Meanwhile, cricinfo reports that England are considering dropping Foakes in favour of bringing in Broad or Woakes. Because that's just what we need - 77 all out, so drop a batsman (man of the series in the last series) in favour of a bowler. :Nooooo


This is hard to understand. Just make that difficult decision on the five bowlers who are best in the conditions with pragmatic compromise for their batting ability to balance the side. Usually the last factor is the hard bit, but with Stokes in the top six also one of the best pace bowlers it no longer is.

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:37 pm
by Arthur Crabtree
My guess is there'll be one change- Broad for Rashid.

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:53 pm
by bigfluffylemon
Arthur Crabtree wrote:My guess is there'll be one change- Broad for Rashid.


I flippin' hope so, but I think Curran will be even less effective with the ball in Antigua. It's often a hard wicket to break teams down on.

You do wonder who will score the runs England need to win the series. It seems as though every batsman is in a rough trot of form. In fact, in the last 12 months, Root, Cook (ret), Bairstow, Stokes, Moeen and Malan (remember him?) have all averaged 10 runs or more below their career averages (and yet somehow we still won two series ??? ). Only Buttler, Foakes and possibly Curran can be remotely said to have had a decent time with the bat.

These numbers are unbelievably bad, in fact:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting

Something is very, very wrong in the structure of the first class game in England. We've produced one genuinely world class batsman (Root) in ten years. Bell, KP, Strauss, Trott, Vaughan, Colly, Prior were all products of an earlier era or the South African system. The best of the rest is probably Bairstow, and he's averaged 30 in the last 12 months, career average 37 with 6 hundreds in 60 tests. It makes you long for the days when we debated whether Ian Bell was good enough with a hundred scoring rate double that of YJB's.

I don't see Mark Ramprakash's name being brought into this much, but surely after such serial underperformance, the batting coach has to be in the firing line (and it's not as if underperfomance on the international scene is unfamiliar when Ramps' name is discussed). We know the England batsmen are capable of so much better than they have been producing for the last 2-3 years, so why do they keep failing?

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:03 am
by Arthur Crabtree
bigfluffylemon wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:My guess is there'll be one change- Broad for Rashid.


I flippin' hope so, but I think Curran will be even less effective with the ball in Antigua. It's often a hard wicket to break teams down on.


Bayliss called it his first bad game (even though he only took one wicket in SL). Maybe that's him saying the right thing about a young player but it sounds like they'll give him another chance.

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:26 pm
by Slipstream
Woried that England will play 2 spinners again and WI 1 spinner. This time Leach, his warm up game 17-2-65-1.

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:04 am
by Alviro Patterson
Slipstream wrote:
I see that for the tour to NZ we have the 4 days net game again. We should have the Lions out there and play 2/3 4 day games against them. Much like the Aussies are doing before the Ashes, playing against their A team.


If the ECB are clever enough, they can incorporate an England Lions tour of New Zealand at the same time and I am sure New Zealand Cricket would be keen to host two unofficial tests as they have reduced their Plunket Shield to a 8 round competition. England Lions play two "unofficial tests" using some members of the test squad prior to a New Zealand A v England warm up. For example the likes of Burns, Jennings, Foakes, Leach, Broad are warmed up before the tests commence.

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:35 pm
by captaincolly
Jennings and Rashid dropped for the second test to be replaced in the 12 man squad by Denly and Broad with Leach on standby if they decide to go for the second spinner.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/crick ... tigua.html

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:36 pm
by sussexpob
captaincolly wrote:Jennings and Rashid dropped for the second test to be replaced in the 12 man squad by Denly and Broad with Leach on standby if they decide to go for the second spinner.


Hard to disagree with the swaps

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:43 pm
by captaincolly
sussexpob wrote:
captaincolly wrote:Jennings and Rashid dropped for the second test to be replaced in the 12 man squad by Denly and Broad with Leach on standby if they decide to go for the second spinner.


Hard to disagree with the swaps

I agree.

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:00 pm
by captaincolly
Apparently Rashid is flying home to be with his wife who is expecting their baby but he would have stayed had he been selected for the test.

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:15 pm
by Arthur Crabtree
Presume Leach will replace Curran, which would be a u-turn on the previous policy of batting down to ten. Then Leach will be in at nine giving England a bit of a tail.

Unless Leach is just going to step in ahead of Broad?

Re: First Test: West Indies v England, Bridgetown, 23-27 Jan

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:17 pm
by captaincolly
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Presume Leach will replace Curran, which would be a u-turn on the previous policy of batting down to ten. Then Leach will be in at nine giving England a bit of a tail.

Unless Leach is just going to step in ahead of Broad?

A tweet from one of the journalists suggested that Leach is unlikely to play unless there's a late decision to go with two spinners. Whether he was guessing of has been told something remains to be seen.
And yet isn't the game at a ground where two spinners are often the way to go?