Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:11 am

alfie wrote:You make a good case for Moeen , Sussex :thumb


Not really defending Moeen, but the data analytics behind his selection. I remember arguing with people for years about Englands strategic approach, being told consistently that Bell and Trott were the way to go and that aggressive players were incapable of scoring big totals. We ditched these useless planks, got some firepower, and what happened? And yet we still find in 2020 people and commentators banging on about a players average and saying Moeen isnt performing because he cant average 30 or 40 runs a game, or cant take wickets, when neither of these metrics are remotely important to his ODI output.

Does he score runs quickly? Yes. Thats the most important thing in his batting output as he so rarely has to make huge totals. Does he stop the other team scoring? Yes, better than anyone.

So its not about picking someone whos got a better average, a better this and that....can you find a SR105 number 7 who bowls 5.2 econ? Id suggest if there was someone there who could, hed already have a 100 caps. Its no mystery why Moeen has played more ODIs than anyone else for England in his career span. If you look at it mathematically, hes a rare find.

Imagine if he hadnt been there in the last 5 years. Stokes going at over 6, Plunketts and Rashid going at 5.8s.....if England picked another bowler of this ilk, theyd be throwing away all their batting firepower with their bowling. Englands bowlers arent really good at all, they are hugely expensive.
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:16 am

alfie wrote:I fear that right now he isn't the same player


This is a LOI discussion, if you wanted a test take, it would be different. My guess is, hes found himself in certain situations in ODI so frequently, he has been geared to scoring at suicidal rates, and he is focused on negative bowling to keep runs down rather than be aggressive. I think England should look elsewhere in test cricket. He should probably retire and become a LOI specialist.
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:39 am

It's not like for like regarding Mo and the seamers. Mo doesn't bowl at the end. Even Rashid bowls a bit more in the last ten overs.

Taking wickets does matter in ODIs, and England improved when they concentrated more on taking wickets. Got to get the top six out before the last ten overs. Plunkett being a wicket taker even though he went for runs was a worthwhile gamble for England.

I'm ok with Mo being in the side as he is quite economical (though less so than other spinners around*) but he does put pressure on others by not taking wickets.

And he should be able to adapt to playing an innings when the top order are shot out. Woakes has done this before, and inevitably it ruins your scoring rate because you are turning around a top order collapse. Mo should be versatile enough to do that, even if it is necessary less often now.

It depends how good the alternatives are. If there are other promising players, there's no problem giving them a chance without it being the end of Moeen's career.

*econs against top nine sides by spinners since start of 2017. Minimum ten wickets.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... pe=bowling
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:17 pm

Mo's Test bowling stats for the past three years are excellent. He averages under thirty, his SR is 51 (!) which is better than JA.

He is though not economical.

Compare with Bess, whose SR is 81 and average over 35. He is more economical. But Mo takes nearly four wickets per Test, whereas Bess is taking two, so he's hardly getting in the game.

It doesn't look like the record of someone who's finished.
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:14 am

For how much of the last 3 years has he had Jos behind the stumps? Genuine question
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:19 am

it just strikes me as odd that at a time when players are limited to one format only, that Mo, who has a much better test record, finds himself in the limited over squad, whilst Jos, who is one of the most destructive limited overs players in the world is in the test squad

baffling, really
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:44 am

Durhamfootman wrote:For how much of the last 3 years has he had Jos behind the stumps? Genuine question


Bairstow was no better. England's keepers have all been bad standing up since Stewart out of regular selections. Don't say Stewart was brilliant, but he was ok. That's out of regular selections. Jones, Prior, Bairstow, Buttler.
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:52 am

Since 2000 the best dismissals per innings was Read for all bowlers. Though it's a meaningless stat for keepers and says more about the attack.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... e=fielding

Buttler hasn't yet stumped anyone in 25 Tests.
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:03 am

Matt Prior at the end was a different Prior to the start. He took some stunners up to the stumps, remember him taking a top edge in NZ standing up to medium bowler (must have been colly) with cat like reflexes. He was terrible to begin with mind, but improved a lot. I don't get that progression with batsman keepers since.
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:14 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
Durhamfootman wrote:For how much of the last 3 years has he had Jos behind the stumps? Genuine question


Bairstow was no better. England's keepers have all been bad standing up since Stewart out of regular selections. Don't say Stewart was brilliant, but he was ok. That's out of regular selections. Jones, Prior, Bairstow, Buttler.

Jos seems to be significantly worse than all the rest
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:17 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Since 2000 the best dismissals per innings was Read for all bowlers. Though it's a meaningless stat for keepers and says more about the attack.

Read was a very competent keeper though, regardless of the attack. Just a shame he could never bat well enough for Big Dunc
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:23 am

and Foster was probably the best of the blooming lot, but didn't have the batting stats to force selection

which has always seemed a bonkers approach to me. Why wouldn't you choose someone who can take more catches and make more stumping opportunities rather than settle for a keeper with batting stats that suggest he might sometimes be able to score the boat load of runs needed to make up for all his errors behind the stumps? :panic
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:45 am

Are there two players in the history of English cricket that get the benefit of hindsight more than Chris Read and James Foster? People still talk about the two of them like they were timeless legends of wicket-keeping, and that both were overlooked tragically in place of worse players. Its like people never watched either in an England shirt.

Read was a total train wreck. He might have been a great all round cricketer for Notts, but in an England shirt he simply didnt have the mental toughness for test cricket. He batted like a rabbit in the headlights, and as a keeper was no better than Geriant Jones. His last test in Sydney he could barely get a glove on the ball, and put down a few chances. Despite his batting output being pretty much zero, he got 20 odd tests on his apparent keeping ability, but it all seemed a myth... he looked pretty poor.

And anyone who watched Fosters debut winter in 2001/02 would be left wondering if this world class keeper everyone talked about had been kidnapped, and a lookalike who had never played cricket before sent out. He dropped EVERYTHING that winter. I still remember a comical moment in his first test where a batsman hit a looping edge to him; he had time to have a cup of tea, a sandwich, go to the toilet, watch a film, then step 30cms to his left and let it fall lamely into his hands...... he ended up falling foward and missing the easiest catch youd ever seen.

In fact there is a case that Foster was, on pure performanc, the worst keeper I have ever seen play for England. He shelled chances all over the places, and not tough ones. Another player that may have been great in CC, but he looked totally out of his depth in tests with the gloves.

Either way, he wasnt dropped initially... he broke his arm after being given a central contract and by the time he healed, the job had been given elsewhere
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:41 pm

There are a great many players who benefit from being regarded as far better players by virtue of the fact that they missed out.

Mustard should have had more opportunities ;)
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Re: Ireland LO Tour of England, July 30-Aug 4

Postby alfie » Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:15 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
Durhamfootman wrote:For how much of the last 3 years has he had Jos behind the stumps? Genuine question


Bairstow was no better. England's keepers have all been bad standing up since Stewart out of regular selections. Don't say Stewart was brilliant, but he was ok. That's out of regular selections. Jones, Prior, Bairstow, Buttler.


Bairstow has thirteen Test stumpings. That doesn't really suggest a man who can't keep to spinners. I think he's a lot better than Jos in that regard.
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