CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Spinner.

[Arthur Crabtree]

My first ten names are the best ten averaging spinners since 1965 with over 200 wickets, listed in order of average. To pick up a different kind of bowler, I then lowered the wickets to 120 and picked on strike rate.


http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling



http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling


Other spinners that might be considered can be voted for in the thread. Some alternatives.

Saeed Ajmal, Saqlain Mushtaq, Ashley Mallett, Iqbal Qasim, Erapalli Prasanna, Srinivas Venkataraghavan.

After this there will be a vote for two seamers. Then for another bowler, which will be a mix of the spinners and seamers who were voted for in the initial seamer/spinner polls but didn't make the team. And then a poll for the number six, which will include batters who have scored runs at 6/7, and also some all rounders (these will inevitably be mostly pace bowling all rounders).

[Arthur Crabtree]

So far, we have

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Richards


Vote for the 4&5 here.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20733

And the wicket keeper here.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=20737

Poll runs for seven days. You can revote.

[Arthur Crabtree]

It feels like Murali and Warne are ahead of the others (Ashwin comes close). If you take out Murali's wickets against the minnows, their records are about the same in terms of average and strike rate. Murali played a lot of games on strips that were prepared for his bowling, which never really happened for Warney. Warne was a slipper and a bat as well. I think Warne is the better spinner and did a remarkable job in serially changing his game to accommodate injuries (while acknowledging his record in India) but I can't pretend I seriously considered MM, given misgivings about his action. If I was to select a second spinner, I'd be inclined to have Abdul Qadir, but that would give me two LBG. I might consider Tim May, who I always rated highly. Maybe Ashwin would be a better pick though.

[Dr Cricket]

Surely Swann is better than Ashwin right now.
Ashwin got the potential to be better or match swann.
Taking out both the freaks Swann been the best spinner I have seen live.

[Gingerfinch]

I went for Murali based on the fact that whenever I saw him he delivered. England's batsmen never played him well, or had much of a clue.

[Dilbert]

Prasanna was considered a magician. My father talks very fondly of him. Claims he was much better than Warne or Murali. Never seen him bowl though.

[sussexpob]

Spin bowlers are my favourite thing about cricket, there is nothing better than watching a batsman being torn apart by pure guile, intelligence and cunning. I would say there are 6 people I have seen that standout, and I am horrified that one of them is not on the main list (Saqlain). I was never a of Kumble, his flatter style was not really spin bowling for me, he only really thrived on worn pitches that offered variations of bounce. He also only maintains a sub 32 run average in one away country, he really wasnt anything but effective but in the most helpful conditions. Ashwin is excluded on the same basis, do India even consider playing him on anything but Bunsens? Harbi was erratic, but at his best for me the pick of them. He had that drift into the batsman at his very best which made him so difficult to face, and he extracted surprising bounce and turn. But his attitude killed his career.

Saqlain and MacGill would probably get into a 15 man squad of players I personally liked watching. MacGill was the macho face of spin bowling, he didnt care about runs, he wanted to bowl out teams by spinning the ball at right angles and being basically all Tora!Tora!Tora! He did that as well as two men on a regular basis, and I have no doubt had MacGill not suffered from sharing a time with Warne, and from his Carpel Tunnel injuries, or had run into the best batsman of all time at the very peak of his powers (Lara in 1999 crushed MacGill to dust, but did the same to Warne and McGrath) we would talk about him in the same terms as the higher placed others.At his very best I havent seen another spinner look as capable of running through a team.

Saqlain is another "what if" player. His career was arguably over in his mid 20's, and knowing about what was happening to Pakistani cricket at the time, you have to question if any of the rubbish around the team had an impact on his hunger for the game. I also believe people have said that he turned to religion and in his later years he didnt care for the game, which I think is a shame. He was brilliant in that Series v India in 1999 (2 back to back 10 for's if I remember correctly). In a short space of time though he achieved a lot, and still seemingly had a lot to give. HE had brilliant control, bowled a bit flatter at times but got the ball to fizz through to the batsman, often low bounce but still getting turn. He would then give you a looping flighted ball that jumped up. He had multiple ways to get you.

Murali has a lot to thank him for too for developing the straight off spin ball that basically made Murali. That was Murali's best skill after the fact he had stamina and would bowl 45 overs a day, that arm ball that went straight on was a quick killer. If you struggled to pick it, you werent scoring much. Murali was a really fine bowler, always ripping it in, making people play and defend themselves, not giving much away. There was something simple about Murali, turn the ball, have an alternative weapon, make the batsman play everyball and make mistakes. He hunted poor batsman, and punished poor technique.

But none of them compared to Warne. He took all of the best parts of everyone else, and knitted them together. Without injury, fitness issues, bans.... who knows. The best player to watch off all time with the ball, the most skilled, the most intelligent (in cricketing terms).

[sussexpob]

Swann is the other name Id highlight, but then he is both under and overrated.

At his best, he was legitimately the best of his time in the world in a relative lean patch after the two mega spinners retired, but he was never quite good enough to reach the top level in context of history when teams werent composed of lots of right handers, or when teams really decided to attack him. If teams didnt let him settle, he could be hit out of an attack or continue to bowl more negative lengths and lines. I remember Dravid doing it at Lords, forcing Swann to bowl pretty much where he wanted him to.

Swann is a little like Murali in the fact that he killed players who had no defensive technique, especially left handers. If you couldnt pick that one that went with the arm its good night sister, or if you couldnt pick that drift in ball that comes to leg, spins to off stump, for the left hander. If you could do both well, then Swann lacked the variety to do much but keep on trying.

A player that was on more element away from the top.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Good posts Sussex. I presume you voted for Warney then. I expected Saqlain to be in, but he didn't score that well for SR or average. He's about the same level in stats as Paul Adams. I wanted him to be in as an innovator, but I'm going to stand by the stats, and those on the periphery of the 15 aren't going to finish top anyway. I add up votes for players not in the fifteen, and mentioned Saqlain and a few others to jog memories.
-------------------------
As a general point, I didn't mention any SA or NZ bowlers, because none have very good records. Bracewell and Vettori might be remembered, or Adams and Harris. For England, Monty wasn't far off. Neither was Shakib al Hasan for BD.

[Dr Cricket]

Actually if ashwin bowled overseas in test now think he would be better than he was before he getting that drift and got better control than before.

Anyway we won't know till 2016/17 when India tour abroad fagain.
Although wi might be a good indication considering India might play in Jamaica.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Swann was a very skilful bowler, and it was quite informative to watch him with the kind of tv pictures that cover modern games. I've got no way of knowing if people used the variations he had, going back, and the commentators don't tell you. I mentioned Tim May, and Swanny should obviously be ahead of him.

Ashwin's SR is phenomenal (as was Swann's). It's up to everyone to judge how much that is influenced by conditions. MM got very spin friendly pitches to bowl on at home, and Ashwin's SR is quite a bit better than his (not including BD and Zim). Obviously MM has a good record in some countries outside of Asia (but a terrible one in Australia) but just as clearly Ashwin has found variations without challenging the rules of the game. Ashwin doesn't even get DRS to explain his SR.

[sussexpob]

I wonder how many series in India have yielded a top score of just over 300 in a 4 match series, and then yielded a next best of 215? These were sub-standard bunsens dialed up for the home team's dual spin attack. Any stats produced from them should be verging on ignorable.

He was pretty rubbish when England last toured on pitches that were a little flatter and slower. In fact when he bowls his stock ball on pitches that arent ripping, he looks very tame.

[Durhamfootman]

I'm a fan of Murali, and whilst I acknowledge the muddle that the ICC got themselves into trying to accomodate him and his rather unique physiology (something that continues to muddle and befuddle and opens the art of spin up to misuse and... well, downright fraud), i feel the game of cricket would have much poorer for his absence. As an example of his mastery of his art, I always cite his over in that Aus -v- the Rest match that mesmerised, bamboozled and finally dismissed the hapless Katich

I also acknowledge SPs views on MacGill, and largely agree with him, but... to quote 'Highlander'....

there can be only one!

Never mind the last 50 years, I'd hazard a guess that SKW is probably the best spinner the game has ever seen, although I have absolutely no way of ever proving that

[Dr Cricket]

Sussex I based my observation on how he bowled in Australian and in the sti Lanka series not the India homes series. Anyway Sussex agree he needs to improve but has a spinner he young.

[Arthur Crabtree]

During my insomnia last night, I looked at some stats, and it was noticable how spinners do so much better in their own conditions (give or take the greats). Looking at England, Murali and and Warne dominate (they did have the benefit of bowling at England batters) but after that, it's all English spinners. In Asia, (apart from Warne, who did ok there apart from in India) it's all Asian spinners, with Ashwin prominent. Down under, it's all Aussies (with the odd leggie like Chandrasekhar making an impression). When Lyon was criticised for his performances in Asia, he was only really following a trend. Swanny shows up well in Asia, but only ever really held on in Australia. The nearest there is to a spin bowling Bradman, must be Warne, if we dilute his ordinary record in India with his good record elsewhere on the continent.