CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Cast Your Vote!

Pick two pace bowlers

Poll ended at Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:21 pm

Dale Steyn
5
19%
Waqar Younis
0
No votes
Malcolm Marshall
8
31%
Allan Donald
0
No votes
Joel Garner
0
No votes
Richard Hadlee
1
4%
Michael Holding
0
No votes
Mitch Johnson
0
No votes
Glenn McGrath
6
23%
Dennis Lillee
0
No votes
Curtly Ambrose
1
4%
Imran Khan
0
No votes
Shaun Pollock
0
No votes
Wasim Akram
5
19%
Courtney Walsh
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 26

Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:43 am

Though Pakistani conditions might have helped reverse swing. I was always more taken with Waqar in Tests, as he did better against England in the games I watched . Wasim in ODIs, certainly. Gooch says Wasim was the best.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby Gingerfinch » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:47 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Though Pakistani conditions might have helped reverse swing. I was always more taken with Waqar in Tests, as he did better against England in the games I watched . Wasim in ODIs, certainly. Gooch says Wasim was the best.


I thought Gooch said Marshall was the best?
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:52 am

Probably. I remember him talking about it on TMS, though I reckon he picked three bowlers and Wasim is the one I remember.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby backfootpunch » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:02 am

i went steyn and akram

steyn is the best of all time in my opinion, there may have been more skillfull bowlers but im not sure there has ever been a more effective bowler than dale steyn

he seems to get batsmen out through sheer force of will

his strike rate is remarkable

his record in asia is incredible

the fact his record is so much better than everyone else in his era is also worth noting
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:12 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote: Maybe there's another variable at work. People used to go whole tours to Pakistan in the seventies and not see an lbw. I'll see if I can statsguru it in the morning.


From a Mike Selvey article on the issue
I have to say that a lack of independence was the general perception in my own playing time to the extent that what were almost urban myths grew. So it became fact that Javed Miandad was never given out lbw in Pakistan, Sunil Gavaskar similar in India, while England players suffered abroad.

In fact a small selection of stats regarding high-class batsmen of the 70s and 80s rather disputes this (without, of course, taking account of those occasions when they should have been lbw). Gavaskar, for example, was lbw 10 times at home as opposed to seven abroad; Graham Gooch 38 times at home (not all to Terry Alderman: the supposed response to a “Thatcher out!” graffito – “lbw Alderman” – was my own invention that in itself became urban myth, by the way) and 12 abroad; Greg Chappell nine at home and seven abroad; Viv Richards nine at home and 12 abroad.


It seems that after neutral umpires came in, lbw's increased by 16% against home teams. But I believe the role of hawkeye has also been argued to have increased lbw's commonly by a similar percentage, as umpires used to believe a solid stride out to the ball almost certainly negated lbw's until technology used to show them consistently hitting stumps.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:19 am

Miandad was out lbw 8 times at home and 25 times away, in spite of the low bounce in Pakistan and the relatively higher bounce elsewhere. Mushtaq Mohammad played for Pakistan for 22 years and was out three times lbw in Pakistan.

Selvey usually has a hidden agenda or is looking for a reason to dig up an old anecdote.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:22 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Miandad was out lbw 8 times at home and 25 times away, in spite of the low bounce in Pakistan and the relatively higher bounce elsewhere.

Selvey usually has a hidden agenda or is looking for a reason to dig up an old anecdote.


He does actually point out that Miandad is an exception later in the piece.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:24 am

I added a stat about Mushtaq Mohammad.

I don't seem to be able to view home and away by dismissal, just individual batters.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:25 pm

To go back to the point on helmets. I believe that Yallop was the first to use one in a test, in the aforementioned series in 1979. These helmets were prototypes still in the early years, and looking at players from that era, its not until you get to the likes of Mike Atherton starting his international career that helmets had front protection on to guard the face as standard. Some of the earlier players tried it, but the widespread belief was the type of helmets being used actually disrupted with vision and as such didn’t last long. In fact, for this reason a lot of batsman didn’t use the helmets and certainly hardly anyone wore them with face guards. I have heard David Gower state before that batting with early helmets disrupted your ability to see the ball, and that he only wore them playing against express pace, where your safety over wicket was probably more important.

If you want examples of players being hit in the front of the face by the Windies attack, then I am sure only a tiny bit of digging would bring in a hell of a lot of examples. One that sticks in the mind is seeing Allan Lamb, a player who had an exception record against said bowlers, having his face smashed up in the late 80’s. Or the 1986 series where Mike Gatting had his face rearranged by Malcom Marshall before the tests even began. This moment has always been discussed as the moment, before a test matches had started, that facilitated the “Blackwash” drubbing. After seeing Malcolm Marshal picking fragments of Mike Gatting’s nose from the ball, the other batsman in the hutch had no desire to go out there. Cut to 20 years later, and the first morning of a series in the UK, an Aussie gets hit straight in the front side of the face, the ball produces a small cut, 5 minute delay and his side win. The injuries are not the same now, the intimidation is not there anymore. The difference of a batting grill is the difference between intensive care and a bowler picking your nose bone out of the ball, or 4 stitches and playing on.

And this is not only me who says this, in fact you listen to anything that even people like Croft or Holding have said on the matter, they make no bones about the fact that they bowled to hurt people and create fear in batsman. It was their main tactic. I believe Mike Holding in the “Fires of Babylon” said something at the start along the lines of “once you hit a batsman he is no longer thinking about hitting the ball anywhere, he is only thinking about self-preservation”. That’s what they aimed to do, hit people and put them into survival mode. They bounced tailenders that didn’t expect it, they bounced guys like Brian Close 50 balls in a row. They wouldn’t get that grace now.

I don’t even think you can create even a semi-argument that this would have been a far less effective strategy now. Limiting the amount of bouncers you can bowl to people wearing full padding and full helmets, the intimidation factor would be taken out, and the main weapon they used would be numbed to some extent. They would not have been as good bowlers now. Neither would Lille and Thompson. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the last of the true really quick legends of the game retired as pitches got slower, batsman became more padded, and the amount of cricket played got to much higher levels. It might be co-incidence, but Gavaskar had a pretty good record in the Windies, and I believe he was one of the first to test safetywear to the head in this series? It’s indicative of the extent that psychology plays in this regards. A little bit more protection leading to a lot more positive results?

As I said previously. How do you think even Sachin Tendulkar would feel if he was batting against Brett Lee at his quickest, having to leave half his padding and his face guard in the hutch, and first ball his gets a 99 mph ball fly past his nose with promise of another 5 for the over to come? And this isnt a Brett Lee that has just played 2 months of IPL, and has just come of a 5 day gap 3 month tour of India, it’s a guy that has had a whole year to prepare for this over and is rearing to go.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:27 pm

In fact, the more I think of it, the more you really have to accept that Dale Steyn's record is really, really amazing. I accept that other bowlers I liked to watch more so got my pick, but Steyn's nomination is utterly sound, and probably correct
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:52 pm

I wouldn't want to suggest the helmets didn't make a big difference, particularly to tail enders. But there is still a degree of threat still, so the fear factor isn't something that only existed then. Look at what the bouncer did to Stuart Broad. It is possible to overstate the impact of the helmet. Real pace can still scatter the lower order and spook the top order as we saw in the Mitchwash. And there was still credit in Holding's fourteen wickets in an Oval featherbed in 1976. It was only the absolute tearaways that caused alarm in the batters back then. Thommo and the West Indians.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:00 pm

And it has been around since the late seventies, in some form (Brearley had some head protection in 1977, by 1978, the helmet was widely used. By 1980, there was face protection. If some chose not to use it, maybe that suggests the batter felt the risk was acceptable.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby Gingerfinch » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:03 pm

Tight at the top.
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:20 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:And there was still credit in Holding's fourteen wickets in an Oval featherbed in 1976.


Wasnt that the test where the Windies fans trampled all over the pitch after a crowd invasion and England, who were 300 for not many down at the time, lost 16 odd wickets for 300 runs to the conclusion of the game?
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Re: CMS Test XI of last 50 Years- Pace bowlers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:36 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:I wouldn't want to suggest the helmets didn't make a big difference, particularly to tail enders. But there is still a degree of threat still, so the fear factor isn't something that only existed then. Look at what the bouncer did to Stuart Broad. It is possible to overstate the impact of the helmet. Real pace can still scatter the lower order and spook the top order as we saw in the Mitchwash. And there was still credit in Holding's fourteen wickets in an Oval featherbed in 1976. It was only the absolute tearaways that caused alarm in the batters back then. Thommo and the West Indians.


But the Michwash was a daily occurrance for batsman in the pre-proper helmet era. In fact, the Mitchwash only serves to show how quick and intimidating bowling being delivered at express pace leads to an utter capitulation in the will of batsman, even with a helmet on. Without one, or using one without a face guard would have made the reality of that danger approach you much quicker, and much more poignant.

Batters were being hit hard and injured a lot in those days. A batsman would stride out to the crease knowing it was pretty likely he could take a ball to the face and died, or be seriously injured. Nowadays you have to be unlucky to be hit on the helmet and be hurt, a batsman can walk onto the pitch and not feel at all as intimidated. In fact, the real reason that bowlers of express pace probably dont exist in this form anymore is that they were nullified as batting became less of a test of physical nature after 1991.

I mean look at someone like Akhtar. He I believe has a good record against BD, and he tore a New Zealand team that was ranked only above BD apart in a 2 match series in 2002 ( I think he took about 20 wickets for about 100 runs in the series, it really was that destructive). But better batsman didnt really have that much of a problem with him, he has a poor record by memory against Australia, and not that good against India after his first series in 1998 was over (where the initial speed caused some problems)

Brett Lee.... its arguable his record doesnt justify his selection in that many tests at a time Australia spat out quite a lot of good cricketers after one bad performance

Nantie Hayward... never made it. Had the speed, never the control.

I guess the later is the point. You could have speed back in the day and most batsman were so concerned about surviving the over alive, the bad balls didnt get punished ( I believe again, Holding says that batsman he faced used to take a trigger movement directly backwards and never went forward, simply because their first priority was to protect their bodies).... by the time the next crop of three proper express bowlers came through in the late 90's people were much more prepared to smash the half volleys out of the ground.

Could you imagine anyone playing a dillscoop without a helmet?
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