England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Cast Your Vote!

Pick two England ODI openers.

Ian Bell
1
4%
Nick Knight
0
No votes
Graham Gooch
6
25%
Chris Broad
0
No votes
Alex Hales
4
17%
Andrew Strauss
1
4%
Jason Roy
1
4%
Marcus Trescothick
9
38%
Alastair Cook
0
No votes
Alec Stewart
0
No votes
Johnny Bairstow
1
4%
Dennis Amiss
1
4%
Moeen Ali
0
No votes
Ian Botham
0
No votes
Craig Kieswetter
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 24

Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:55 pm

sussexpob wrote:Similarly, what to make of Tresco? A great batter in English conditions, but was he as reliable elsewhere?


England was often the hardest place to bat in ODIs though. His eight home tons could be seen as a strength, but his inability to cash in on flat pitches then becomes stark weakness.
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby sussexpob » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:21 pm

Yet, if we were to remove the frequent hapless West Indians, the non-test playing minnows, the Bangladesh team who didnt win a ODI I can remember in his period of playing against them, and a Zimbabwe team who drifted into exile and were banned due to being rubbish.....

He ends with an average of 33 and a SR of 80.

Out of that, he has a decent record against India but he refused to get on the plane when England went for the 6-1 massacre of 2005/06, it was a much hungrier team that one, and Id doubt he would have maintained that record in that environment. But thats neither here nor there, he was ill, I dont want to make a big deal of it.

He has a good record v Sri Lanka, but a lot of that is coming from that 2006 series when Sri Lanka showed exactly how flat the pitches were (didnt they score 300, or would have, in all games? In one they chased down 350 in like 35 overs.... this isnt suiting the England is toughest place to bat narrative, even if its isolated).

Against all others hes underwhelming. No disaster v Pakistan or Australia (although his SR v Aus is rubbish).

Also feel like his career benefited from ending before the end. Was he even 30 before his last test? His career operated strictly in that 5-6 year period from mid 20s to turning 30, his record never reflects the fall away others had. Youd expect all batters whos place is assured enough to warrant the slow death approach to lose 3-4 runs off their averages as they decline.

Yet, I still find it hard to drop him.
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:42 am

Roy and Tresco occupying the slots at the moment. Any more votes before I move on to 3&4 on Saturday?
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby andy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:50 pm

Not sure how Roy gets in over Hales....
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm

Recent form maybe.

Hales has done better in T20. Wasn't long ago when people were wondering if he could adapt to 50 over cricket.
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby DiligentDefence » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:06 pm

Hard to pick due to differing rules over the ODI period but Gooch and Trescothick for me. Too soon imo for Hales and Roy.
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:13 pm

Gooch has a sr of 61.
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:49 pm

Openers used to see the shine off the new ball back then.

SRs for openers until 1990.

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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:40 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Openers used to see the shine off the new ball back then


Which is why, in my mind, no opener pre-1990 should be considered. There isnt the same type of true skill that the modern day game has now developed. Players are simply batting test match style innings.

Gooch played a lot of his matches inside the 1990s (49 games) and strikes at 54. Gower, Hick, Stewart and Botham range from the high 70s to 66 as openers in this time, so if anything Gooch played a very significant porportion of his matches as a weight on the team, others who played small amounts of matches performed much better.

And in the 1990s, Tendulkar was striking at 95 (32 matches), Anwar and Jayasuriya are around the 80s. Waugh was 82. Lara in the high 70s. Crowe is 20 SR above Gooch..... Every team had someone who would have walked past him into a team.

He's not, for about 40% of his career when the game develops to higher scores, a person that would even get into a team of the best 11 openers of a five year period, and arguably wasnt even in the top 3-4 options for his own team.

Puttting him in an all time XI is an insult to the skill base of ODI. If anything, Amiss stands well above anyone pre 1990s for England
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby Gingerfinch » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:25 pm

'In the 90's' is pretty vague.

Gooch played most, if not all pre 95, but from memory things changed during the 96 world cup, when Jayasuria let loose. From thereafter strike rates increased.
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:45 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:'In the 90's' is pretty vague.

Gooch played most, if not all pre 95, but from memory things changed during the 96 world cup, when Jayasuria let loose. From thereafter strike rates increased.


Including only those years in the 90s he played, he ranks 67th out of openers by SR in this period.

Mike Atherton is higher than him


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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Refining them a little to set a 10 match qualification

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting

2 x NZ with better SR and Average
3 x PAK the same
2 x AUS
2 x IND
2 x SL
1 x SA, with a second 1 run behind and a better SR
2 x WI
3 x ENG
1 x ZIM

Essentially, on these figures he would justify playing for the worst team in the world, but only just.... Grant Flower is only a few points away from him.

And this is a period of approx 40% of all his game.

Are you telling me Roy wouldnt get into any other team apart from second opener slot for Zimbabwe?
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:41 pm

Gooch was more of an eighties player I think. He was getting on a bit in the nineties.

My link before was v top 8 sides, as is this- openers in the 80s. GG averages 48, among the best, with a SR comparable to his contemporaries.

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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:49 pm

Surprised to see Steve Smith of Australia in there, a place behind Gooch.
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Re: England All Time ODI XI- the openers.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:56 pm

This is ongoing, but Gooch rather surprisingly occupies an opening spot now.
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