Shut your eyes and think of England.

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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Fri May 25, 2018 6:39 pm

I have a feeling this appointment will be permanent before the end of the summer. Quite how flower has failed in everything he has done for about 6 years and is still not only there, but giving responsibilities of increasing importance, destroys my belief that things will change .

The article saying ramps could take over flower......OK. so he's failed to develop a single batter, but he gets a promotion.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Dr Cricket » Fri May 25, 2018 9:37 pm

Interesting Flower stating he would prefer england lions losing to a very experienced A teams then thrashing *modded* UAE, Sri lankan and Bangladesh teams.
nice been saying this for like 4-5 yrs now.
incredible they finally see how beating crap teams mean nothing now.

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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri May 25, 2018 9:40 pm

sussexpob wrote:I have a feeling this appointment will be permanent before the end of the summer. Quite how flower has failed in everything he has done for about 6 years and is still not only there, but giving responsibilities of increasing importance, destroys my belief that things will change .

whilst being described as a safe pair of hands
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:04 am

look like ECB are struggling finacially.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricke ... -guns.html

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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby yuppie » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:18 pm

The ECB cutting player development? Fair enough as i guess there has not been to much player development over the last few years.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:52 pm

certainly no point in anyone wandering up to CLS to have a look at the players up here
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:11 pm

yuppie wrote:The ECB cutting player development? Fair enough as i guess there has not been to much player development over the last few years.

wouldn't that make it worse though.

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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby yuppie » Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:37 pm

Dr Cricket wrote:
yuppie wrote:The ECB cutting player development? Fair enough as i guess there has not been to much player development over the last few years.

wouldn't that make it worse though.


I was trying to be funny:) :D
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:22 pm

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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:54 pm

Even so, on the formbook, we can expect at least a couple more embarrassing twists and turns to its handling of the matter. And as usual, it will get away with it. But when you consider the serial ineptitude, cynicism and moral wimpiness, it really is a continuing marvel that the ECB itself has never faced a charge of bringing the game into disrepute.


I'd have them on said charge in about 5 minutes flat

they should be put immediately on the sporting offences register
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:58 pm

Just seen that the film about England getting to number one then falling apart is on BBC2 tomorrow night, called The Edge.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:43 pm

Can't recommend it. Doesn't examine why England fell apart other than fatigue.

I liked a comment from Matt Prior about how tough Ponting was. Prior smacked Ricky in the mouth (with the ball) at silly point quite badly. Prior apologised and asked the Aussie captain if he was alright. Ponting just spat a mouthful of blood onto the grass and replied 'F*** off' and got ready for the next ball.

Prior usually comes across well. He seems one of the more likeable memebers of that side.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby GGAS » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:00 pm

He came across as a bit of a tit in KP's book... but then not the most reliable of sources.
A man convinced against his will is a man of the same opinion still.

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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:35 pm

Well it was written that way, but KP didn't really have any reasonable grievances (that he shared) other than Prior was really into the team, dedicated and a bit too earnest. I thought MP seemed unfairly maligned in that book on the evidence given. He was singled out for buying into Flower and not being cool.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:31 am

The documentary is devoid of any of the details, it sticks pretty much to central tenant of what must be sacrificed to be the worlds best; but at the same time, misses entirely the point about the true cost of that success. So we get Prior talking about the team celebrating a good test, only for Flower to punish them for having a beer by turning their hangover day in the hotel into an army camp assault course, but we are supposed to take away from it that those reminders of "the job isnt done till its done" is what makes champions, and not the arguable reality that treating people in such a way destroys them over anything but the shortest of time spans.

Its not hard how to see how some people just dont respond to that, and some people may do. I get the feeling with Prior that he was someone who looked at sporting success in a similar way to Flower, and when told to pointlessly run up sand dunes till he dropped, seen the greater good; others would seen this madness for what it is. I get the feeling its a clash of personalities when we look at Prior v KP, and neither is right. Good managers of people can adapt their message to understand that some people need different approaches to get the best out of them. Flower has no clue about that, I get the feeling you end with a few core players that maybe bought into him that ended as his favourite players, and those he couldnt manage were forced to the perimeters as trouble makers.

For every Prior that gets better, there is a Finn thats reduced to cry, or Trott reduced to a mental mess, or a KP. Interesting that Prior says for instance Ian Bell was dying in that SA punishment exercise..... and we wonder why he got to 30 around a time he should have peaked, and his form died a death and effectively had to retire at 32 in an era where his career record stood out miles over those replacing him.

There is no assessment of the damage this approach caused, and no critique of whether it was worth it, so the whole is rendered pretty invalid. It concludes that the method was worth it, and that the damage was just part of what is required to make it. But England were briefly number one for a few days, but then fell like a deck of cards.

Lets be honest, India had one of the best batting line ups ever that was in fierce decline and with retirements looming, and had just lost their two key spinners; Australia were a team completely in rebuild. It wasnt an era where becoming number 1 required an epic team, there was no truly world class team about. England just happened to be in the stage of development that was more advanced. We got good wins away in these places, but Flowers side would have never beaten Australia in 2006/07, or never have beat India away 5 years before.

So England momentarily settled team had 1 or 2 years where they did very well, but that was it. The cost of beating a few average sides destroyed the fabric of the national game, and didnt lead to a boom; the fallout turned people away and left them disinterested. Was it worth a token World Number 1 tag for a few weeks to then get embarrassed in OZ next time, or get embarrassed in UAE, or lose at home in May to a Sri Lanka team with 4 bowlers who wouldnt get a game in a Div 2 side in the CC?

Flower built a castle in the sand
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