Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:47 am

Slipstream wrote:
SaintPowelly wrote:England fail time and time again because we settle for average test players and try and make them into an ODI side.

Would ANY of these England players get into the NZ or Aus XIs ?? I think not.


ODIs are played like Tests for the first 10 overs with 2 new balls, then they become ODIs and the last 15 overs become like 20/20s. So I would like 3 Test type players at the top to build a platform but then I then I think you need players capable of high strike rates.

West Indies hit 52 sixes, South Africa 50 and England managed 18. (Our big hitters Buttler 2, Morgan 3) AB de Villiers hit 20 on his own.


The start of a Test match would entail going at 2-3 runs an over. An ODI has to begin with more impact than that, and the players need to be adaptable. In some conditions, they will need to score faster, and in others, make sure the top isn't blown off the order. But generally, go at 4-5 runs an over. The start of a Test and ODI aren't really the same, in my opinion. Bell sometimes scores well in the first ten, sometimes he doesn't, but he often gets tied down after the ten, and gets out for about 30-40. He uses up a lot of dot balls and gets stuck at one end which effects his partner and the innings loses energy.

He might still be worth a place as being the best available, though I think they should try some alternatives to test that theory.
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:52 am

They should also look at alternatives to Morgan, and build the batting around Moeen, Root, Taylor and Buttler. But also establish back up for them. The side that was established around Cook, Morgan, Bell, Anderson, Bopara, Broad is a busted team. Even failing at home.
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:52 pm

Making_Splinters wrote:Again a rather irrational responce, made all the stranger because it contradicts itself. How should England select these 11 players? What are they going to be looking for? What performances are they going to use as indicators? That's a plan. To say, we're going to pick aggressive batsmen, we're going to look at players scoring quickly in limited overs cricket, that is planning. England need to go one step further and say we're going to build up a pool of players who have international experiance. Essentially anything other than selecting players at random is planning, which makes your stand point all the more bizarre as you consistantly have said that England need to change their approach on these forums.


I was referring to planning in a wider gambit, the extent at which every decision is micro managed to the Nth degree and is structured, not to a very narrow and strict interpretation that all decisions made that have consequence can be constructed as forming part of a plan. After all, it maybe a paradox and self-contradictory, but planning not to have a plan is by its very nature a plan, the fact it is a contradiction does not make that untrue, and it can be made either consciously or by chance. Deciding to select players out of a hat is also a plan, so if your point is that every decision is a form of planning, then surely pointing out the requirement that we need to plan for future has no relevance? By the very nature, all decisions will be created from a plan of sorts using such a narrow definition?

What is being ignored here is that England had a plan after 2011. They targeted the 2013 Champions Trophy and failed to win it at home, sticking to their bowl tight, chase low strategy.... yet that plan 2 years later seems so old fashioned its unrecognisable, in two years the game has changed beyond recognition to the point that now even considering bowling teams to below 300 on a regular enough basis for it to be worthwhile was foolhardy, 2 years it was 250-275!! But England never changed the strategy at the other end, they stuck rigidly to a strategy that left them outgunned. Was it the lack of a plan, or the lack of a GOOD plan that was our problem?

The end game has always been winning the world cup or any given series or match preceding this, I don't think its anything new to suggest we plan to win games, we are always working towards winning regardless of how poorly we do it. For a 4 year period in between world cups, what other targets do you set? At what point do you pull away or adapt the strategy for the end game if it doesn't work? What happens when your target to win a series interferes with your target to win a tournament in the next 4 years?

Let me explain this with an example. Say we decide to breed a team for 2019 with the relevant experience levels you are calling for. We lose 4 series in a row while guys get experience and it isn't working, what do you do, drop the team or show faith? What happens if a similar pattern occurs right up to 2018-19? At what point do you accept that experience is not quality, that the players have been given enough time but not work, that quality doesn't need experience, and how much do you pay homage towards form? At what point is your team set even if its not good enough?

Experience cores are not the answer if you building you house on the sand!!! Morgan has bags of experience but couldn't hit the ball off square this tournament, and experience is no substitute for capability. You cant plan for the unforeseen, for the fact that what you tries fails, and if you insist that time is a factor, then whos to say you don't dogmatically waste time on players that don't deserve it.

Setting some form of cricketing constitution for the next world cup is too rigid. I know English cricket loves a grand initiative or loves a long report or investigation into simple matters, but one is not needed here. Its time to do away with all these overblown nonsense and stick to something more organic and reactive. Cricket in itself has change in the last 4 years, guys with Buttler and Maxwell's SR didn't exist 4 years ago, tactics have changed and will change again, rules have even changed.

Pick teams based on the opposition you are facing. Don't send a team with an average par score of 250 against a team who average 320, you wont win, they have more firepower. Pick players who can win those matches, pick them on form and capability in comparison to those they are facing, be reactive to other players outside the squad and judge on a case by case basis when a player needs the drop.

Most importantly, the tactic should be to play naturally, to pick players with a natural inclination to play ODI cricket and let them play naturally....no more data, no more batting plans, no more coaches, diet manuals....
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:10 pm

Is that a plan? Yes, but in general a lot less detailed. After picking the players on pure capacity, it should be left to those players to decide on how to play, not to data crunchers, machines or coaches. Its been this over reliance and over management of an individual players prerogative that I see as a main reason on why so many of our players seem incapable in this format. Pick the team and let them play naturally, as long as the team has the capability to compete, then they can win.
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby Alviro Patterson » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:20 pm

clubcricketeradi wrote:Bell 262 runs @ 52.40 @ SR 77.28
Joe 202 runs @ 40.40 @ SR 84.16
Moeen 192 runs @ 38.40 @ SR 105.49
Taylor 149 runs @ 37.25 @ SR 88.69
Jos 141 runs @ 35.35 @ SR 135.57

Bell is useless. There are much better run scoring batsman atm in England.Discuss..... :coat


Two problems with Bell - struggled to time the ball and is slow running between the wickets, turning 2s into 1s and 3s into 2s.
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby backfootpunch » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:39 am

Alviro Patterson wrote:
clubcricketeradi wrote:Bell 262 runs @ 52.40 @ SR 77.28
Joe 202 runs @ 40.40 @ SR 84.16
Moeen 192 runs @ 38.40 @ SR 105.49
Taylor 149 runs @ 37.25 @ SR 88.69
Jos 141 runs @ 35.35 @ SR 135.57

Bell is useless. There are much better run scoring batsman atm in England.Discuss..... :coat


Two problems with Bell - struggled to time the ball and is slow running between the wickets, turning 2s into 1s and 3s into 2s.


the main problem with bell comes after the powerplay, first ten overs he is excellent, but when the sweepers go back his main boundary option (lofted cover drive) gets put away and he gets bogged down against the spinners/medium pacers

his inability to rotate the strike efficiently against the slow bowlers means he plays ambitious shots against the fast bowlers and gets himself out, it is why he has made so few hundreds

he was not the issue at the world cup though, that was ballance, morgan and taylor (bar the 90 odd against the aussies that didnt really matter since the game was already over)

not only did they not score any runs they swallowed up deliveries as well, though obviously taylor is fairly blameless since he was batting out of position
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby Durhamfootman » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:41 am

rich1uk wrote:
Durhamfootman wrote:England had a 4 year plan for this one

look how well that turned out


I think England had a 5 year plan , it will all come good next year, just a tad late

Ah, I see. Clearly I'm just impatient. excellent point. :salute
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby Alviro Patterson » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:43 am

backfootpunch wrote:
Alviro Patterson wrote:
Two problems with Bell - struggled to time the ball and is slow running between the wickets, turning 2s into 1s and 3s into 2s.


the main problem with bell comes after the powerplay, first ten overs he is excellent, but when the sweepers go back his main boundary option (lofted cover drive) gets put away and he gets bogged down against the spinners/medium pacers

his inability to rotate the strike efficiently against the slow bowlers means he plays ambitious shots against the fast bowlers and gets himself out, it is why he has made so few hundreds

he was not the issue at the world cup though, that was ballance, morgan and taylor (bar the 90 odd against the aussies that didnt really matter since the game was already over)

not only did they not score any runs they swallowed up deliveries as well, though obviously taylor is fairly blameless since he was batting out of position


Bell not being able to find another gear is not much different, he slowed the run rate down and put pressure on incoming batsmen.

Ballance and Taylor's problems are more straight forward, just swap batting order. Had that happened then England may have got close to 400 against Scotland and 350 against Sri Lanka.
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby Slipstream » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:57 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
Slipstream wrote:
SaintPowelly wrote:England fail time and time again because we settle for average test players and try and make them into an ODI side.

Would ANY of these England players get into the NZ or Aus XIs ?? I think not.


ODIs are played like Tests for the first 10 overs with 2 new balls, then they become ODIs and the last 15 overs become like 20/20s. So I would like 3 Test type players at the top to build a platform but then I then I think you need players capable of high strike rates.

West Indies hit 52 sixes, South Africa 50 and England managed 18. (Our big hitters Buttler 2, Morgan 3) AB de Villiers hit 20 on his own.


The start of a Test match would entail going at 2-3 runs an over. An ODI has to begin with more impact than that, and the players need to be adaptable. In some conditions, they will need to score faster, and in others, make sure the top isn't blown off the order. But generally, go at 4-5 runs an over. The start of a Test and ODI aren't really the same, in my opinion. Bell sometimes scores well in the first ten, sometimes he doesn't, but he often gets tied down after the ten, and gets out for about 30-40. He uses up a lot of dot balls and gets stuck at one end which effects his partner and the innings loses energy.

He might still be worth a place as being the best available, though I think they should try some alternatives to test that theory.


I don't mean they should bat at 2 or 3 runs and over. You just don't want to lose any wickets in the first 10 overs. They are more used to facing the new ball against good bowlers. I don't know about Bell opening though. Maybe Trott would be better there. I always think
1st 20 overs 100 runs
2nd 20 overs another 100 runs
Last 10 overs 8-15 runs an over
(you could say they start at the 35th over going for the runs but we are useless in the batting powerplay)
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby rich1uk » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:21 am

Slipstream wrote:I don't mean they should bat at 2 or 3 runs and over. You just don't want to lose any wickets in the first 10 overs. They are more used to facing the new ball against good bowlers. I don't know about Bell opening though. Maybe Trott would be better there. I always think
1st 20 overs 100 runs
2nd 20 overs another 100 runs
Last 10 overs 8-15 runs an over
(you could say they start at the 35th over going for the runs but we are useless in the batting powerplay)


having plans like that is part of the problem imo, saying we want to be "100 after 20 overs" and "200 after 40 overs" means the batsmen aren't going out and just playing

I genuinely think there is a problem setting targets like that , how many times do we see our batsmen hit a boundary early in an over and then just seem to go "oh well that's the one boundary I need to hit this over" and then just go into their shell for the rest of the over, rather than think "great that's me got one boundary this over lets see if I can put the bowler under pressure and maybe force a field change or make them change their bowling plans"
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby meninblue » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:47 am

backfootpunch wrote:
Alviro Patterson wrote:
clubcricketeradi wrote:Bell 262 runs @ 52.40 @ SR 77.28
Joe 202 runs @ 40.40 @ SR 84.16
Moeen 192 runs @ 38.40 @ SR 105.49
Taylor 149 runs @ 37.25 @ SR 88.69
Jos 141 runs @ 35.35 @ SR 135.57

Bell is useless. There are much better run scoring batsman atm in England.Discuss..... :coat


Two problems with Bell - struggled to time the ball and is slow running between the wickets, turning 2s into 1s and 3s into 2s.


the main problem with bell comes after the powerplay, first ten overs he is excellent, but when the sweepers go back his main boundary option (lofted cover drive) gets put away and he gets bogged down against the spinners/medium pacers

his inability to rotate the strike efficiently against the slow bowlers means he plays ambitious shots against the fast bowlers and gets himself out, it is why he has made so few hundreds

he was not the issue at the world cup though, that was ballance, morgan and taylor (bar the 90 odd against the aussies that didnt really matter since the game was already over)

not only did they not score any runs they swallowed up deliveries as well, though obviously taylor is fairly blameless since he was batting out of position


If someone is scoring 52 runs average then the SR of 77 is not that bad, although SR if in 80- 85 would make it look ideal. Also considering we are discussing team England wherein only few batters are scoring enough runs to make the SR worthy, Bells contributions become crucial in building totals. 52 @ SR 77 is a good contribution when i look at the relative performance of other batters of England team in this WC. He may get in bad patch next series, but here in WC he has been Englands highlight player. Now looking at Bell as option at next WC which the thread is about. He would be 36 at next WC which is no way a retirement age for a specialist batsman who does not bowls in both formats of the game. If he is form prior to series before WC, he should be in team. if he is out of form the way Morgan etc are, he should be dropped. Specialist batsmen under 40 should not be discarded for reasons such as age if they are fit, experienced and in form.
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby dan08 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:30 am

clubcricketeradi wrote:
backfootpunch wrote:
Alviro Patterson wrote:
clubcricketeradi wrote:Bell 262 runs @ 52.40 @ SR 77.28
Joe 202 runs @ 40.40 @ SR 84.16
Moeen 192 runs @ 38.40 @ SR 105.49
Taylor 149 runs @ 37.25 @ SR 88.69
Jos 141 runs @ 35.35 @ SR 135.57

Bell is useless. There are much better run scoring batsman atm in England.Discuss..... :coat


Two problems with Bell - struggled to time the ball and is slow running between the wickets, turning 2s into 1s and 3s into 2s.


the main problem with bell comes after the powerplay, first ten overs he is excellent, but when the sweepers go back his main boundary option (lofted cover drive) gets put away and he gets bogged down against the spinners/medium pacers

his inability to rotate the strike efficiently against the slow bowlers means he plays ambitious shots against the fast bowlers and gets himself out, it is why he has made so few hundreds

he was not the issue at the world cup though, that was ballance, morgan and taylor (bar the 90 odd against the aussies that didnt really matter since the game was already over)

not only did they not score any runs they swallowed up deliveries as well, though obviously taylor is fairly blameless since he was batting out of position


If someone is scoring 52 runs average then the SR of 77 is not that bad, although SR if in 80- 85 would make it look ideal. Also considering we are discussing team England wherein only few batters are scoring enough runs to make the SR worthy, Bells contributions become crucial in building totals. 52 @ SR 77 is a good contribution when i look at the relative performance of other batters of England team in this WC. He may get in bad patch next series, but here in WC he has been Englands highlight player. Now looking at Bell as option at next WC which the thread is about. He would be 36 at next WC which is no way a retirement age for a specialist batsman who does not bowls in both formats of the game. If he is form prior to series before WC, he should be in team. if he is out of form the way Morgan etc are, he should be dropped. Specialist batsmen under 40 should not be discarded for reasons such as age if they are fit, experienced and in form.

Compare Bell to other openers at the World Cup. They nearly all have a strike rate over 100.
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby ianp1970 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:50 am

If we're aiming for 300 runs plus in an innings, then everyone needs to be striking at 100.
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby sussexpob » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:11 am

Bell got his runs against Scotland, Afghanistan (not out chasing 100) and Bangladesh.... and his SR in the BD game put pressure on the middle order to score quickly when we had a low total and wickets in hand. Its ok to slag off 4-7 in the batting order, but how much scoreboard pressure are they put in front of when a guy is batting slowly to a total of 260 against a team we should be beating? Its not good enough to bat under the rate, you end up asking your lower and middle order to score 9-10 an over over, which is a very good T20 score, over 20 overs say.....

Ignore his average, he can average 200 per out and if his SR is not over 80, I wouldn't pick him for an associate side. Its unacceptable!!!!

It would be like putting a guy with a 13 second 100m in a relay team because he won the 10,000m Gold!
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Re: Rebuilding for the next World Cup.

Postby hopeforthebest » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:45 am

I see were once again on the let's blame Bell tack, the England fans default position. It's BBC 606 all over again.
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