Ashes debrief: The future of test cricket and Australia?

[sussexpob]

He has used the oscillating seaming ball for ages, this one is supposed to use the grip differently for swing. Come to think of it, it may have been something I heard on tms being discussed in passing. The main point is that when you look at some bowlers like Johnson, they get swing using unorthodox seam positions, Johnson gets it bowling a seam almost like a spinner, so there is an art there that unknown.

[bigfluffylemon]

Hard to judge Mitch1 too harshly given the pitches were prepared, to some extent, to negate him.

One 5 wicket haul in 11 matches in England, average approaching 40. I think there is more than an inkling to suggest that Johnson hasnt cut it in away Ashes series at all, and to be fair, hasnt attempted to learn how to bowl on English pitches. Cardiff had some uneven bounce and was two paced, and Edgbaston and Trent Bridge offered movement off lengths that troubled batsman. His return is not indicative of that, especially when Starc, Hazlewood, Broad, Finn and Anderson all have gone for wickets under the 30 mark.

Personally,I believe England are getting payback for Johnson's hype from the last series. He came here to bowl fast and short, and wasted conditions consistently. Even he seems to think the bouncer is his greatest asset, but in truth, I would say in the times I have seen him bowl well it has been his ability to late swing the full ball that really troubles batsman.

He can swing it both ways and reverse it. When he takes it away from you he gets so many players over extending into the shot as the ball moves so quickly and late, and he can make those lengths where you will drive slightly on the up deadly because of the bounce he generates. I would hazard a guess that at Perth when he took that 6/30 odd in 2010-11, every single wicket was full and at the stumps, and swung late intowards the batsman. My memories of South Africa in the late 2000's when he did brilliantly was also of a guy who swung the ball so late, he was scary.

We didnt see that here, even though others swung the ball consistently. He kept bowling way too short all series, never getting it up there and challenging the batsman.

Couldn't agree more, sussex.

[rich1uk]

interesting stat on the bbc website regarding how familiar players are in away conditions and the lack of tour games that are now played to give players a chance to get used to conditions

according to the article as recently as 1989 the Australian tour team played 14 games against county opposition during the tour, 5 three day games before the first test and another 9 interspersed between the 6 tests

changed days now with just how full the international calendar is

[Dr Cricket]

Swann speaking sense though unlike the people saying playing County cricket will fix the problem.

Will say it so many times the pitches in Domestic cricket are the problem.
Shield cricket are too samey.
Even County cricket don't mirror Australian/South african,
Although because some of the pitches are indian like they did do well in india last time around with Swann, panesar, Cook, KP, Root all batting well in india.

Of course the number of warm up games make a difference but I think the Domestic Structure makes the biggest difference.

Good article by the BBC even better they didn't mention the County cricket.

[rich1uk]

at the end of the day good players will adapt to different conditions if given the chance to familiarise themselves with them , too many average players are playing test cricket atm

I also think a lot of the problems the aussies have been having are as much mental as technical , poor judgement of leaving the ball and playing the wrong shot to the wrong ball , i'm loathe to just blame it all on too much t20 and players not learning how to build an innings but it has to be a factor, going hard at the ball all the time when there are no slips isn't as much of an issue, when there are 3, 4 or 5 slips you are going to get one with your name on it before long

I don't think countries should be "doctoring" pitches in their domestic game to try and replicate conditions elsewhere, if you start leaving too much grass on pitches and any tom, *modded* or harry can get the ball to swing and seam and take wickets then its going to damage the development of bowlers as much as its going to help batsmen learn to play the moving ball

its also too easy to point the finger at English pitches when overhead conditions have a big influence, so unless other boards are going to get their hands on sean connery's weather machine from the avengers movie then i'm not sure how they replicate that

[sussexpob]

interesting stat on the bbc website regarding how familiar players are in away conditions and the lack of tour games that are now played to give players a chance to get used to conditions

I think Michael Clarke has been the most consistently shocking batter in this series for Australia, and he has played more tests in England than Joe Root (22 games to 20). In fact, id hazard a guess only Border beats how many tests Clarke has played for an away player in England, so Clarke cant complain about inexperience in English conditions. Voges is another who has consistently failed in the first few matches, and he has 11 seasons CC experience. Watson/Haddin/Johnson are on their at least 4th playing tours here (2009, 2010 vs Pakistan, 2013 and 2015) and some may have also came as part of specialist T20 or ODI tours. Even Steve Smith is playing his 3rd test tour here.... others like S.Marsh/Starc/Rogers have played multiple county seasons, Rogers has no doubt played loads more matches in CC then any consistently capped England player in the past decade, in fact matches in general. The only one that hasnt is Mitch Marsh, but then again, his father was national academy and selector for England for years, so he has access to someone who would be really knowledgeable in giving him some pointers. Even Warner has played for two counties. Harris, had he made it, has bags of experience here. Lyon's second tour.

If Australia were picking a young side that hadnt toured here at all en mass or played CC, then fine. But the Aussies in England are probably the best represented demographic in any form of foreign player going to another country to play multi-day cricket, and in terms of playing tests in the last 6 years, some could have played 15 plus tests in England!!! No Ashes touring side has had that experience of frequency of games in England over such a short period of time.

[rich1uk]

interesting stat on the bbc website regarding how familiar players are in away conditions and the lack of tour games that are now played to give players a chance to get used to conditions

I think Michael Clarke has been the most consistently shocking batter in this series for Australia, and he has played more tests in England than Joe Root (22 games to 20). In fact, id hazard a guess only Border beats how many tests Clarke has played for an away player in England, so Clarke cant complain about inexperience in English conditions.

its not just about previous experience in the conditions warmup games are about acclimatising to differing conditions and re-familiarising yourself with them after moving around from one series to the next

I don't think Clarke's problems had anything to do with his experience in the conditions either tbh , hes just horribly out of form

[sussexpob]

interesting stat on the bbc website regarding how familiar players are in away conditions and the lack of tour games that are now played to give players a chance to get used to conditions

I think Michael Clarke has been the most consistently shocking batter in this series for Australia, and he has played more tests in England than Joe Root (22 games to 20). In fact, id hazard a guess only Border beats how many tests Clarke has played for an away player in England, so Clarke cant complain about inexperience in English conditions.

its not just about previous experience in the conditions warmup games are about acclimatising to differing conditions and re-familiarising yourself with them after moving around from one series to the next

I don't think Clarke's problems had anything to do with his experience in the conditions either tbh , hes just horribly out of form

Other teams have managed it, New Zealand and Sri Lanka have not lost here since Australia's back to back Ashes beatings.

[rich1uk]

interesting stat on the bbc website regarding how familiar players are in away conditions and the lack of tour games that are now played to give players a chance to get used to conditions

I think Michael Clarke has been the most consistently shocking batter in this series for Australia, and he has played more tests in England than Joe Root (22 games to 20). In fact, id hazard a guess only Border beats how many tests Clarke has played for an away player in England, so Clarke cant complain about inexperience in English conditions.

its not just about previous experience in the conditions warmup games are about acclimatising to differing conditions and re-familiarising yourself with them after moving around from one series to the next

I don't think Clarke's problems had anything to do with his experience in the conditions either tbh , hes just horribly out of form

Other teams have managed it, New Zealand and Sri Lanka have not lost here since Australia's back to back Ashes beatings.

if Australia had played a 2 test series against us they would be going home with the ashes

[sussexpob]

if Australia had played a 2 test series against us they would be going home with the ashes

Yet other teams have not been blow away within this first two test period.

South Africa destroyed England in the first test in 2012, and won the 2nd comfortably.
India were 1-0 up in 2014 after two
Sri Lanka were 1-0
New Zealand were 1-1

Teams coming here arent being blown away int he first few tests recently, and they should get more used to conditions.

[Dr Cricket]

I doubt it rich.
England are just too good for Australia in English Conditions, not even a two test series against Scotland or Ireland will change that.

Also Domestic pitches won't be doctored they will just go back to how their were naturally in Australia.
Also pitches don't need to be doctored drastically they just need variety some slow, some quick, some bouncy, some dry, this will mean players are constantly adapting and changing techniques or the way their bowl in each match.

Australia haven't adapted at all in this series, England also don't adapted well when their get different conditions.
TBH the only team that actually adapts well is South Africa.

It too easy to blame the Schedule, T20 and lack of games etc.
But most of the blame as to go to the players.

[Dr Cricket]

if Australia had played a 2 test series against us they would be going home with the ashes

Yet other teams have not been blow away within this first two test period.

South Africa destroyed England in the first test in 2012, and won the 2nd comfortably.
India were 1-0 up in 2014 after two
Sri Lanka were 1-0
New Zealand were 1-1

Teams coming here arent being blown away int he first few tests recently, and they should get more used to conditions.

If anything teams are getting blown away in the end.
Even Australia were 1-1 after two test.
do think short long tours and no real break/ first class games in the middle is the reason for the one sided ending in long tours.

Nasser Hussain said this before the Ashes started that he expects a close series but in the end it will look one sided because one side will be in a roll and the other won't have time to get it back or games to get form back.

[rich1uk]

I really cant believe that people are saying more exposure to a set of conditions wont make players better in those conditions

I am not suggesting it should be done, or even can be done because of scheduling but the theory cant be wrong

i said above bhav most of the problem is down to too many average players playing test cricket , and yes playing too much t20 is a contributory factor to batsmen not exhibiting patience in test cricket, how can it not be when that is the format of cricket most young players will be most familiar with and will probably play before they play FC cricket now

[sussexpob]

I really cant believe that people are saying more exposure to a set of conditions wont make players better in those conditions

The figures dont add up though, despite what seems a very obvious conclusion. I agree with the general point, more time playing and more warm up games should mean better responses, but these havent added up in recent test series. I dont know why its the case, but teams seem to get worse the longer tours are here.

[rich1uk]

I really cant believe that people are saying more exposure to a set of conditions wont make players better in those conditions

The figures dont add up though, despite what seems a very obvious conclusion. I agree with the general point, more time playing and more warm up games should mean better responses, but these havent added up in recent test series. I dont know why its the case, but teams seem to get worse the longer tours are here.

I don't think that has anything to do with technical issues however

the last couple of series india were here for example they basically just gave up , their heads were down and looked like they weren't even trying towards the end , it doesn't matter what your preparation is, what type of pitches you play on in your own domestic system or how good your technique is if you aren't mentally tough enough to handle test cricket

and I still believe that t20 is a factor in that , its almost creating the cricketing equivalent of ADHD