Cricket-Match-Special ... A forum for discussion

sussexpob wrote:

alfie wrote:Interesting choice of John Crawley as a comparison - though I would submit that comparing figures in this case is a little pointless as he and Stokes performed radically different roles in their teams : what is "good" for an all rounder might be seen as somewhat less so for a top order bat

Maybe a slightly rhetorical question, but at what point does an all-rounder with lowering production in one discipline cease to be an all-rounder? Ben has taken 36 wickets in his last 25 tests.... I cant give you an answer as to what that should be considered, personally I think that falls between part-time/batter who bowls and all-rounder, but the trend downwards and fitness concerns makes me think in the future, its going to fade to one side.

My guess is Stokes future will lie in batting more and more. He is bowling much less, and returning much less when he does. Problem is, his batting average is going downwards recently - and its sharper away from home, and against better quality sides. I think he needs to ditch bowling to preserve and focus on batting, and getting that average up.

Maybe he can turn it around, but I dont think its isolating or manipulating stats to suggest in the last 2 plus calendar years, its downwards trend on both metrics. Its expected for a player with fading fitness and increasing age/responsibility in captaincy.

My point really is, if he cannot upturn his form or even decline slightly more, he cannot sustain his position in the team on performance. Average downtrending from 30 to into the 20s with the bat, and over 35 with the ball..... even a pretty average specialist at that point becomes better for the side.

I don't altogether disagree with you here ; as I also suspect he will bowl less as time goes by - not unnaturally : his style puts a lot of strain on his body. And although he has had his magic moments , he is no Botham with the ball - but still a solid contributor for his team ; perhaps more noted for vital breakthroughs and a willingness to take on the hard work on dirty days than regular excellence ?

Can't agree about downward trends though. You may not have intended to fiddle the figures by selecting 2021 as a starting point ; but as I have shown , that year is a bit of an aberration and 2022/23 do not show any decline in batting so your assertion that his average is heading inexorably into the twenties is simply not true ; while even his bowling figures remained very respectable last year (26 wickets at 31 , despite the inclusion of three games on very flat pitches in Pakistan) He hardly bowled in NZ, and wasn't impressive when he did - but I think I will wait and see what develops before concluding he should become a specialist fielder.

I do think DFM was correct in suggesting that averages are not the best indicator of Stokes' value in any case. Example , leadership and match-winning performances - which he has undeniably produced on a number of notable occasions - are arguably more significant. I don't think his place in the side is at risk just yet

But hey - I do share some of your concern about his bowling , even if I am a little more optimistic. And I hope my optimism is not misplaced as I fear if he cannot put in a solid shift when required in the coming series against Australia then the home team's chance of regaining the urn will take a very serious hit. Don't want - or expect - to see him bowl 20 overs a Test ; but hope he will still be able to produce that little injection of magic when necessary. Guess we will see in three months...

Arthur Crabtree wrote:

alfie wrote:But he did (Crawley), I think it is fair to say , suffer from the lack of a media fan club - which caused his relatively ordinary but hardly awful returns to be judged much more harshly than those of a couple of his contemporaries.d 32 the ball.

Crawley was fast tracked into the England side after doing well at school and university, and was hugely hyped, and talked of as an England captain. Before he had done anything. Of course, when he wasn't superman, the press moved on to someone else. Crawley had plenty of chances. I don't think there are any what-ifs there. His technique wasn't great. Fletcher even brought him back for another go.

I certainly would not suggest he was hard done by in terms of selection. Merely that he received less of a "good press" during his career than a couple of (somewhat over-hyped ?) teammates whose overall records at Test level ended up inferior to Crawley's - massively so in the case of Ramprakash, who somehow still managed to play 52 Tests to his 37. Truth is , England were struggling to find seriously good Test batsmen at the time (sounds familiar !) and all these fellows were probably fortunate to play as many as they did. Lack of viable alternatives...

alfie wrote: Can't agree about downward trends though. You may not have intended to fiddle the figures by selecting 2021 as a starting point ; but as I have shown , that year is a bit of an aberration and 2022/23 do not show any decline in batting so your assertion that his average is heading inexorably into the twenties is simply not true ; while even his bowling figures remained very respectable last year (26 wickets at 31 , despite the inclusion of three games on very flat pitches in Pakistan) He hardly bowled in NZ, and wasn't impressive when he did - but I think I will wait and see what develops before concluding he should become a specialist fielder

I think my point was a little less certain/forceful than suggesting he is inexorably heading to the knackers yard, Alfie. Andy highlighted his concerns about his fitness/mental burden leading to possible impacts on his performance or longevity in the future, all I really did was to extend that argument to suggest that it might apply to the past, based on what is dropping numbers in both disciplines. The two year period was chosen because Andy mentioned Stokes was maybe 2 years away from decline - so it felt natural to counter the point by saying his decline started possibly that long ago. And then I extended the point further by saying if those numbers can be considered the start of the decline, then one would expect another two years from now to pass and those numbers to get worse, and at what point does Stokes value to a side as a non-bowling, not really scoring runs, all-rounder.

My opinion are Stokes are well noted. I disagree about his place in the pantheon of great players, much in opposite to popular opinion - but what I cannot take away from him is, he has put a lot of his body on the line for England. IPL, three international formats, bowler, frontline batter, slip fielder... for 10 years.... and carried arguably the biggest amount of pressure in the team to perform. And now thrown in the mental burden of captaincy. I would hesitate that very, very few cricketers in the history of the game have so much water under the bridge in their early 30s. Hes the equivalent of a not that old car, with 500,000 miles on the clock.

So, if you want my take - he might not have declined yet, but I really cant see him continuing as an all rounder captain in his 30s and one of two things not happening (a) A complete disintegration of his game (b) a fitness breakdown. If I were him, I'd give up bowling today. Focus on doing 2 things right, not 3, and save yourself the stress. And then its up to him to show he can push that batting average back up to the higher 30s, low 40s.

Of course, I am sure there are some people who owuld believe Stokes value as captain might be worthy of carrying a passenger, if it comes to that. Not that I would agree....

Haha : thanks for thoughtful response , Sussex.

Yeah well I will confess to slightly exaggerating your predictions for his demise... and I think your views on Stokes are indeed well known on this site Car with a lot of miles on the clock not a bad analogy...

However I am not yet convinced he has to give up bowling in the short term : and indeed if he did it would give England a real headache because unless another proper all rounder appeared from the clouds team balance would be , frankly , blown apart. And yes , his batting alone - on current figures - would have arguably a marginal case as one of the top six bats in England ; though I imagine he'd be given time to rectify that. As I said before , I think he can continue to do a job in both disciplines provided he doesn't overdo the heavy bowling stints. (Whether that is practical with the current team setup we will have to see)

But as for his batting : if you study his cumulative averages from his debut , you will see that apart from a brief flash of 40 after his first couple of Tests , he has always fluctuated between 35-37 , with a couple of breaks above 38. He's not dropped out of that range now , despite that wretched 2021 ; so I'm not seeing any evidence that his batting is in decline - if anything it is becoming more consistent with just three single figure dismissals in his last 20 , which covers his games since assuming the captaincy. Only one century in that period which is basically why his average hasn't zoomed ; but I would argue that in the context of the matches concerned he has regularly played the innings that the side needed ; be it a hundred against SA to secure a good lead , a 75no as second fiddle to YJB in a run chase of NZ - or brisk if perhaps rather carelessly thrown away forties when setting up declarations... He does what is needed , most of the time ; and it seems to be working for them given the results , no ? As a number six , in this team , I reckon his batting is a perfect fit.

Could he adapt his game to be more of a regular high scorer , like Root ? Not sure he could , to be honest. I suspect he would be more likely to call it quits once his bowling days are completely done (he would never settle for being a "passenger" , I am quite sure , even were they prepared to let him !) than attempt to become an accumulator - but I may of course be completely wrong ! In any case , right now I think England need him to continue in his present role so maybe we could revisit this in twelve months time ?

As to his place in the pantheon : I believe in comparing apples primarily with apples so would be looking to group him with the other outstanding England all rounders I have had the pleasure of watching over the years : there really aren't that many that stand out. Bailey , Greig , Botham , Fintoff ... Stokes. Can't think of any others that ever justified a place , even temporarily , in either discipline. I might try working out his ranking when his career is over ...

Interesting read

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/stat ... hs-1366701

It's been an extraordinary 12 months, so it'll be very interesting to see how it goes over the next 12 months

Another good year for Jimmy the Saint.

Slipstream wrote:Interesting read

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/stat ... hs-1366701

Are England the first team to redefine test cricket with such an approach? I think its debatable personally - Steve Waugh was an advocate in the early 2000s with an ultra aggressive approach, and Australia used to bat around 4 an over routinely in tests, which at the time felt pretty special also. You could argue England have taken it one step further, but bats have got bigger and more advanced for power hitting, T20 has become a thing, and boundaries have gotten smaller. So the result of the approach has been stronger on paper, but the idea is somewhat the same. Maybe if you gave 2002 Australia shorter boundaries, bats with all middle, and 15 years of power hitting training for IPL, they'd have found another gear.

What I found amazing was that Brook was batting out of his crease in one Test so the keeper came up to the stumps and Brook didn't move. Never ever seen that before.

Bairstow started his comeback today playing for Yorks 2nds. 97 off 88 balls, dropped on 21 and playing and missing several times to Olly Stone, but took the rest to the cleaners. Stone apart, I believe it was a modest attack

Good luck to him. He's going to have a part to play in the ashes

Durhamfootman wrote:Bairstow started his comeback today playing for Yorks 2nds. 97 off 88 balls, dropped on 21 and playing and missing several times to Olly Stone, but took the rest to the cleaners. Stone apart, I believe it was a modest attack

Good luck to him. He's going to have a part to play in the ashes

Good to see him back on his feet and playing after a bad injury.

I see the verbals have already started with over a month to go until the Ashes. This is going to get tiresome.

Focus on winning the cricket, boys. Winding up Australia seldom goes well.

bigfluffylemon wrote:I see the verbals have already started with over a month to go until the Ashes. This is going to get tiresome.

Focus on winning the cricket, boys. Winding up Australia seldom goes well.

Agree completely.

bigfluffylemon wrote:I see the verbals have already started with over a month to go until the Ashes. This is going to get tiresome.

Focus on winning the cricket, boys. Winding up Australia seldom goes well.

Someone needs to tell Broad that India won away to Australia in almost total lockdown isolations before that Ashes tour. That fact makes his point sound a little ridiculous.

Australia have mastered that pre-series press assault in the last couple of decades when we have toured, and one gets a sense it drums up an air of hostility coming into a series - sadly, England always look pathetic trying to do it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/index.html

Can't happen quick enough.