The enigma that is Kevin Pietersen

[hopeforthebest]

I think England have definitely moved on . Even if cms hasn't

I get drawn back to this because people keep claiming that KP losing his England career was in his own interest, and he was at fault for not being able to revive it.

I don't think England can move on until they actually justify their decision. The disquiet over Kevin is part of a number of issues coming out of the Ashes whitewash. These are unresolved. Cook is still captain, Flower is still influential. Neither of these have been held to account for at least two years of decline. Only Pietersen. Only his stats are held against him. Flower left behind a huge crisis with hardly a team in place. Look at the XI for the Sydney Test.

I don't think Pietersen should have been sacked, and I don't think he should come back now. I think Flower and Downton can be allowed to go. Cook should lose the captaincy across the board, and I think he and Bell should be watched very closely regarding their places, given they were part of the same decline as KP. I would be looking at new players to take England forward, and I've a hunch Moeen would be a good leader of it. Then I'd see England as having moved on. New coach of course.

I seem to remember Bell almost single handedly holding the England batting together in the home ashes series.

[hopeforthebest]

You like STATS AC Here's some from the time KP returned in 2012 - Jan 2014.

KP.
Average 36.83, 2 centuries, 8 half centuries
Cook.
Average 41.44, 5 centuries, 6 half centuries.
Bell.
Average 39.83, 4 centuries, 5 half centuries.

[alfie]

I wasn't going to go on with this...nearly Christmas , and it feels like we are retreading old ground...

But I have to respectfully disagree with Arthur on most of that. I reckon it largely depends on how you see the Pietersen exit : and I don't see it as a case of his being blamed for the Ashes debacle , except in so far as he was one of many who underperformed. The hamfisted ECB PR attempts may have clouded the issue ; but it seems to me more a case of deciding that the team had reached a turning point and that for various reasons he wasn't a good fit for the new course. It is of course fair enough for anyone to have his own opinion as to the merits of that decision ; but as we are none of us as close to the playing group as those who made it , I'd question how much such opinions are worth ?
In any case ; assuming it is not fair to blame KP for the decline of the team , is it really any fairer to blame Cook ? Or Bell ? Or even Flower : all teams - and coaches - have a sell by date ; and it seems clear that both the coach and the particular playing group reached theirs around the time they went to Australia last year. And the team duly folded up , rather spectacularly ! Which doen't mean , surely , that all parts of this previously successful group have to be replaced before we can all move on ?
In time the survivors of the carnage ( Anderson , Bell , Broad and Cook ...Prior surely wont be back again ) will all follow their former comrades out of the picture : but I don't see any need to hustle any of them out the door as punishment for being part of the decline of the team , just as they were formerly part of its rise...
Getting rid of Cook as captain seems more like the revenge of a Pietersen fan than a logical choice. Granted he is no Brearley ; but until the Australia tour he had a pretty good record as skipper. And despite a lot of personal and team pressure he still managed to lead England to a comeback win over India this year. ( Of course one can discount the latter as a function of luck or a poor Indian team , if one wishes. But that sort of claim can be used against any leader if one has a mind to do so...Australia do not change captains as lightly. Moeen may well be a future leader . So might Root. Not sure it is time for either , though ; and I certainly don't see it (sacking the captain ) as necessary for England to draw a line under
the past . Though of course Cook - and Bell , and anyone else - have to perform in order to hold a place in the side.

Aargh ...I know we are never going to agree on this...never mind. As I said at the start , it's Christmas so I'm calling a truce. Goodwill to all men etc etc. I really am sorry KP had to go the way he did , by the way. At least he gets to enjoy Christmas in the Australian summer anyway...

[Arthur Crabtree]

There's a lot to come back on there. But I fear you are weary, so 'll leave it there.

I don't mind a truce as long as no one gets a football out.

[budgetmeansbudget]

There's a lot to come back on there. But I fear you are weary, so 'll leave it there.

I don't mind a truce as long as no one gets a football out.

And Paul McCartney is nowhere in sight.

[Aidan11]

There's a lot to come back on there. But I fear you are weary, so 'll leave it there.

I don't mind a truce as long as no one gets a football out.

And Paul McCartney is nowhere in sight.

Don't mind Macca. It's Cliff I'm worried about.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Cliff has Pipes of Peace?

[Aidan11]

Cliff has Pipes of Peace?

If he wants to. Just keep him away from the Millenium Prayer, Savours Day and anything else he's offered at Xmas.

[shankycricket]

My personal opinion is that Cook is finished as an international cricketer. He has got one more series to revive his form, in the Caribbean because after that, he is going to face as stern a test an English batsman possibly could. A home series against Southee and Boult in early season English conditions, followed by 5 tests against Australia, a team against whom he has a terrible record in 4 out of 5 series (including both the series at home), followed by a tour to the UAE against Pakistan, where England were whitewashed last time around and against whom he has an ordinary record, both and away and then possibly, the stiffest of them all, a 4 test series against Messrs Steyn, Morkel and Philander in their own den. Considering that Cook has largely built a career based on prolific performances against weak seam bowling sides like India and Sri Lanka (and one extraordinary series against an Australian team at its nadir) and the fact that he has struggled EVEN against those sides over the last 12 months or so, I'm not too sure he'd come out of these 4 tough series against NZ, Aus, Pak and SA with any credit left. In fact, I'm not even sure he'd last that long. A home Ashes defeat (not saying its certain by any means) coupled with a poor batting performance (quite likely IMO) could spell doom for him especially if his godfathers are no longer in.charge of the ECB.

[Alviro Patterson]

My personal opinion is that Cook is finished as an international cricketer. He has got one more series to revive his form, in the Caribbean because after that, he is going to face as stern a test an English batsman possibly could. A home series against Southee and Boult in early season English conditions, followed by 5 tests against Australia, a team against whom he has a terrible record in 4 out of 5 series (including both the series at home), followed by a tour to the UAE against Pakistan, where England were whitewashed last time around and against whom he has an ordinary record, both and away and then possibly, the stiffest of them all, a 4 test series against Messrs Steyn, Morkel and Philander in their own den. Considering that Cook has largely built a career based on prolific performances against weak seam bowling sides like India and Sri Lanka (and one extraordinary series against an Australian team at its nadir) and the fact that he has struggled EVEN against those sides over the last 12 months or so, I'm not too sure he'd come out of these 4 tough series against NZ, Aus, Pak and SA with any credit left. In fact, I'm not even sure he'd last that long. A home Ashes defeat (not saying its certain by any means) coupled with a poor batting performance (quite likely IMO) could spell doom for him especially if his godfathers are no longer in.charge of the ECB.

Very premature to say that Cook is done as an international cricketer, even if his test form has been inconsistent in the last two years. But I do agree he needs to raise his game in what will be a very difficult 12 months ahead. Maybe the selectors and ECB hierarchy had that in mind when removing Cook as ODI captain.

[DiligentDefence]

My personal opinion is that Cook is finished as an international cricketer. He has got one more series to revive his form, in the Caribbean because after that, he is going to face as stern a test an English batsman possibly could. A home series against Southee and Boult in early season English conditions, followed by 5 tests against Australia, a team against whom he has a terrible record in 4 out of 5 series (including both the series at home), followed by a tour to the UAE against Pakistan, where England were whitewashed last time around and against whom he has an ordinary record, both and away and then possibly, the stiffest of them all, a 4 test series against Messrs Steyn, Morkel and Philander in their own den. Considering that Cook has largely built a career based on prolific performances against weak seam bowling sides like India and Sri Lanka (and one extraordinary series against an Australian team at its nadir) and the fact that he has struggled EVEN against those sides over the last 12 months or so, I'm not too sure he'd come out of these 4 tough series against NZ, Aus, Pak and SA with any credit left. In fact, I'm not even sure he'd last that long. A home Ashes defeat (not saying its certain by any means) coupled with a poor batting performance (quite likely IMO) could spell doom for him especially if his godfathers are no longer in.charge of the ECB.

It's certainly a possibility shanky, but so is the idea that with a decent rest and no ODI's to worry about Cook comes back to something like his best form. I think the second is the more likely of the two.
One thing Cook's period as captain has illustrated is that is foolish to groom someone for captain so obviously as selectors/establishment seem to find it harder to make a necessary change.

[meninblue]

Very premature to say that Cook is done as an international cricketer, even if his test form has been inconsistent in the last two years. But I do agree he needs to raise his game in what will be a very difficult 12 months ahead. Maybe the selectors and ECB hierarchy had that in mind when removing Cook as ODI captain.

Yes, a player averaging 46 as opener over as many tests (100 + ?) as he has played can be expected to come back to form. Personally i would not discard the chances of him regaining test format form. He has been one of the best English test batsmen with 23 tons. Not many English batters must have scored more tons than him. And he has not even crossed 30 years yet iirc. Technically he has relatively very few weaknesses as compared to others, so thats another reason i would not be surprised if he strikes form.

[Arthur Crabtree]

He can probably function as a Test opener. Don't forget how difficult that is, with perhaps Warner, Smith and previously Cook, being the only openers to maintain decent stats in the 2010s. Harder to predict that he will return to his prodigious form of 2010-12.

And as Shanky suggests, he does have a case to make all over a gain. He hasn't made a hundred for four series, even including the kinds of contests in which he previously excelled, against SL and India. Would he survive another year like this? Maybe he would. The pressure on him as a Test batter (as opposed to captain) hasn't really registered yet. But that will change. A couple of tons in West Indies should be enough to carry him through the tougher games to follow. A bad tour of WI and he'll have to produce in one of the Ashes, UAE and SA.

[Aidan11]

Bring back KP and all will be well again.

[braveneutral]

Bring back KP and all will be well again.

Was that the sermon at mass?