Ben Stokes

[Durhamfootman]

'needs' never enters into it, sadly

he turned out for two games in 2024, but that was just to test his knee out ahead of the tests, to decide if he could bowl or not

Like I say, there is talk, but until I actually see it, I still expect it not to happen

[Durhamfootman]

Dobell in his match report today

"If there were any doubts about whether Stokes deserves to be rated among the great allrounders, consider this: he is now one of just two men - Jacques Kallis is the other - to have claimed 250 wickets and scored 7,000 runs at Test level. Two others - Kapil Dev and Ian Botham - have claimed 250 wickets and scored 5,000 runs.

It's not impossible that Stokes could become the first to claim 300 wickets and score 8,000 runs. Only eight England bowlers have taken more wickets than him in Test cricket. All of them could justifiably be classified as greats of the English game. As a bowler alone, Stokes is in rarefied company.

But the figures will never fully reflect his value. They don't show the length of the spells. They don't show that he rarely has the ball until it's old and soft. They don't show that he's at his best when the match situation is at its worst. Typically, really, he finished here without a five-for. But his figures - 4 for 70 - still compare nicely with the rest of England's seamers, who claimed 3 for 229 between them. He was also the most economical of them."

nicely put, George

[sussexpob]

Well, its confirmed. He's going after tomorrow...

[Durhamfootman]

WTF?

[Arthur Crabtree]

He's 35 which is pretty much when you retire. Sudden of course.

[andy]

Sure I heard him say he still wants to play for Durham though? Seems as if he really enjoyed being back there last week

[alfie]

Seems what McCullum was talking about re Ben's mental health was accurate...he's just burnt out. Big loads of responsibility , disappointment at messing up a great chance of Ashes success in Australia ; and that overdone business over a late night after a match was completed obviously hasn't helped. Physically he was fine as his bowling stint showed - but the mental side was the killer.

Really sad to see him go out like this. Will be horribly missed. Good luck finding a replacement as leader or all rounder in the short term...

[Arthur Crabtree]

Maybe he could have stood down from the captaincy after the Ashes as a means of reducing the pressure.

But I've never felt a player retiring is a sign something has gone wrong. That sudden realisation that they just don't want to do it anymore. Playing sport for a living must be fun, and it's lucrative. But extending it into the core of your life has always felt depressing to me.

I hope he finds something worthwhile to do outside the game.

Just don't become a commentator.

[Arthur Crabtree]

But, right to acknowledge a totemic England cricketer who reached a mighty peak which has passed and is now over.

I think he was undervalued as a bowler for England for too long, another failing of the Cook years, but that seems to have been put right under his own captaincy.

He had a huge impact as a leader, maybe more than any other for England; changing their fortunes for a while, but also the way they approached the game. Ultimately it was exposed as a bit foolish, but the positivity was an adrenaline surge for as long as it paid off.

Played the game in a good spirit, which matters. And suffered enough to be interesting. He had a lot of heart...

[sussexpob]

For a player who entered into test cricket during the collapse of England's last great cricketing empire under Flower, I do wonder if Ben looks around his dressing room and the state of English cricket, and can't help but see the similarities. Both époque's share the sense of a great ideological journey crumbling to dust as its deficiencies are laid bare, and having experienced the desert years after that Ashes series in 2013, I can't blame him for not wanting to be part of the rudderless era that will no doubt follow.

I have always had a reputation for being negative towards Stokes. I think in hindsight I should have given him more credit for some of things he has achieved in the game, and that starts with the Ashes series in discussion. In a series which will rank as arguably the greatest catastrophe to befall our national game, the only positive ending that series was one very young man standing up, however small or insignificantly, against the tide. The series might have been all but over by the time Ben made his 100 at Adelaide, but it takes some balls to see world class veteran players buckling all around you, put your tin hat on, and just go out and get the job done.

English cricket desperately needed a hero, a pin up boy to hang future hopes on, and they found it in the burning embers of that Flower team, and one that fit the architype so well; a strong, aggressive, heart on his sleeve type guy who bowls with gusto and smacks the ball hard. One gets the sense that England's desire to have this type of person in the team always meant that Stokes role in the team would be disproportionately appreciated, and so it came to pass. Stokes had the face that fit, and the applause followed everything he did.

It's at this stage where I think my opinion splits from the pack. We entered an era where Stokes was lauded as an all-time great, possibly even the greatest, assessments devoid of context or completely ignoring when he played badly. This always irked me, especially as we had just gone through an era where the press and team management had treated KP so badly. It felt unfair that on the one hand the press could disregard all the negatives and hype up the positives of one relatively unproven player, while at the same time attack arguably the greatest bat we had for decades like he'd achieved nothing in the game. That sense of protection and favouritism from an organisation that had lost all sense of trust or connection to fans like myself was hard to stomach.

This positivity always followed everything he did, and has come to shape his legacy. Last night, I listened to the commentary team say he never lost the big key moments in his career, but do we not remember him bowling the worst 4 balls in T20 history to lose a world cup? Wasn't that a big moment he proved to be very human in? And even in his signature match winning performances come with context - In both 2019 mythical innings, he was dropped smashing out to deep midwicket, in both cases the fielder caught the ball and fell over the boundary. The WC final, which we didn't actually technically win, was ended up being settled by a freak accident that turned a runout into 6 runs. At Leeds, he was dropped at slip, dropped at the boundary, survived a famous Nathan Lyon mistake, and survived the umpire not giving him out on a ball hitting halfway up middle stump, all with only a handful of runs still to get. I find it hard to conclude someone making 4 errors that should have lost the game as the pressure becoming choking, being representative of Stokes steadiness under fire. In these pressure moments he did buckle, he made errors.... its just those errors were not taken advantage of.

His quality as a solo match winner is also very hyped, save for the couple of outliers in a career of 122 tests, the stats uncover a batsman feasting mostly on dead calories. Out of the players to score 1000 runs for England in draws, Stokes averages the 5th best with the best 100 to matches ratio. Of all time for all batsman in the 100s who have done it, he is 28th. Those at the top of these lists also average many more runs per game more than him, so the disproportionate nature of averages in drawn games only heightens the discrepancy. A middling bat in the grand scheme of history, turned into a monster on flat decks where games pan out to nothing - his best test score in Cape Town is a prime example South Africa scored nearly 700 in response and the game got nowhere near to producing 40 wickets.

I think its fair to say also that Ben had some luck, and at his peak a feeling he benefitted from it an abnormal amount. And while there are instances of just sheer unexplainable stuff (having his wicket hit in India in consecutive matches without a bail dropped is again, just an absolute freak occurrence that cannot be explained), is there more to this than meets the eye? Is there room to explain this through the pressure or aura that Stokes put on other players? Would Lyon have taken the run out had he not been turned into a gibbering wreck watching Stokes smash the ball into the stands. Would Dhoni have missed that run out in India in 2016 had it been anyone else? Would Boult have took that catch at the boundary had it been Rashid hitting it at the other end? Is there a case to say that Stokes made his own luck, making players acutely aware when he was on a roll that the consequence of an error against him meant death of your chances. I think there is certainly that there. Through the way he played, always on the edge and always with that element that he could take a game away from you in a heartbeat, it was a less a case of Stokes been great under pressure, and more a case others around him being unable to cope with the pressure he put on them. Maybe that is contradictory, as one is proof of the other.

All in all, maybe the true value of Stokes was something very tangible but totally unquantifiable. To coin a military phrase, he was a force multiplier, who cannot be appreciate within the context of his own statistical output, but what his mere presence brought to others around him, or what effect his presence had on his opponents. Or maybe at least until the Covid era where his batting decline significantly, and his bowling fizzled out under failing fitness.

As a captain, I think he was unfortunate to have inhabited an era where his coach and team director were so devoid of skills to do the job. A Stokes like vibes man who is popular enough, and with the aura and stature enough, to get his troops running to the danger head first may have worked alongside a coach who had the ability to channel that alongside a deep level of thought or restraint. I don't think Stokes was a bad captain, but he captained in his own vision; on the qualities that got him by as a player. Some of these are invaluable in leadership, and no one who worked with him speaks ill of him. Hard work, leave nothing on the field, aggression and positivity - what would a Flower done with this side by implementing discipline? What would Fletcher have done with his uncanny knack at finding players and improving them?

Sadly, we will never know. The brutal truth is, his captaincy has levelled out to be no better than those like Cook or Root who will be remembered for being poor. But I will ignore that, Stokes is a better leader of men than these people, and probably would have thrived without the chancer brigade around him.

How in the end do I remember Stokes? As a batter, I think he was never that great a player consistently to tough bowling. He averages mid 20s in India and Australia, which have to be taken into account. But a player on his day that could change the destiny of a match through sheer brute force.

As a bowler, I see him a lot like Jacques Kallis in the fact that he could have been world class had he not been for time split between batting. His record with the ball comes nowhere near close to his ability. At his best he could swing it both ways, he could reverse it, had a knack of getting the ball to move late, could bowl hostile, could bowl mammoth back-breaking spells... pretty much all of it. But the weight of being a three format cricketer and all-rounder robbed him at his peak age of his bowling, something he has recovered to great effect recently. Its the bowling at this point we will miss. And as a fielder? Unquestionably the best fielder we have had in my lifetime. That catch from Broad at TB I think might be the best I have ever seen.

And what of the man? I guess some people will draw on the fact that he's had some off field troubles at every stage of his career to paint this element of personality as negative. For me, for all the sense of his macho personality I see a man who is maybe more fragile than people would believe, and who is likeable and relatable as a result, despite commentators on the game talking about him like he's an infallible superhero. And despite whatever my views are, to the very last ball he faced up in test cricket, he remained the one man that English cricket fans would stop what they were doing to watch, or feel an inspired moment would come. For a test match game struggling to drag itself into the future, you can't put a value on this sort of stuff and what it brings to the national game, and I have to credit Ben for dedicating so much of his team left in the game being a champion, and being concentrated solely on, test cricket.

Despite what people may think, I have only warmth and respect in my heart for Ben Stokes. I don't think he is an all-time great, but a very good player, and a player that never left anything in the tank. And that's the problem - I don't think there is anything left in the tank for him anymore. As I said a few times in recent weeks, I am concerned for his mental health, and hope he is well. Speaking to TMS last night, it was the first time I seen him smile in an interview for a while... looked like a weight had been lifted. I am sure in time we might get the gossip lowdown of infighting with McCullum or Key. I don't really care about that stuff.

When you give 122 test matches + 100s of LO games to the cause of English cricket, you don't need to explain to me your reasons. Go have fun doing what the hell you want, or making a few retirement dollars. I wish Ben all the best post-retirement, and hope he finds happiness in his next life. And thank him for all the good memories and hard work of the past.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Great post- cheers!

[Durhamfootman]

It's been very frustrating being in a place where I couldn't keep up with events

I'm home now and just beginning to catch up

My big question was whether he would return to playing for Durham and it does appear that he might. He'll be welcomed with open arms here

There were a number of people of could, and a couple of people who should, have gone after the ashes debacle and they didn't. Ben Stokes was the one person who shouldn't have gone and he has.... which is very 'England'. I suspect that defeat later today, plus the loss of the second best allrounder in test history, will quickly lead to the end of those who should have been kicked out months ago.

[Durhamfootman]

I haven't had a chance yet, and won't until later this evening, but I'm looking forward to listening to Dobell's take on this tonight, because he's been worried for a couple of weeks that exactly this scenario would unfold

[sussexpob]

My big question was whether he would return to playing for Durham and it does appear that he might. He'll be welcomed with open arms here

He said last night that he enjoyed being back at Durham for his last match, and intends to play on in CC.

[sussexpob]

I wouldn't consider it outside the realms of possibility that Key and McCullum buggers off, and their replacements convince him to play on...