England's Selection policy and player management systems

[Alviro Patterson]

Quite like the England way of thinking in even considering Michael Carberry to open the batting and move Root down to 6.

The Aussies will no doubt have planned to unsettle Root both tactically and mentally, so opening with Carberry negates that in both departments. Root offers the flexiblity in batting anywhere, therefore a solution is found to the troublesome no6 spot.

[sussexpob]

Your argument makes no sense and doesn't look at the wider picture. For a start Woakes, Kerrigan, Bairstow, Taylor, Finn are at the infancy of their international careers and have time on their side.

Finn has played more tests than George Headley and Graham Pollock, and by the end of the Ashes will have completed nearly 4 years in International cricket. Correct me if I am wrong, but how many really good tall bowlers took 4 years to improve to test class? Bairstow has only 12 tests, but still no hundred, technical problems to inswinging full balls and short balls.... the last Ashes series seemed to unlock more technical problems than it solved.

Kerrigan may well be a victim of infancide. Realistically his debut was as horrible as it could have ever been imagined, and he couldnt push Panesar out despite his form and attitude being tragic.... he has also never really had a stand out county year in the top division. I expect him to fade.

Woakes and Taylor will probably play again, but the mystery still remains about why they are not in the squad for the Ashes.

[sussexpob]

Shazhad was clearly elevated after a season in 2010 or 2009 where he took a few wickets and proved he could hold a bat, which shouldnt have been enough to get near a test side, and subsequently proven that he lacks quality. When England spat him out the other end the young man, who had been praised by his county mentors and Flower for his attitude, wasnt displaying much of the passion that was noted before his international career. He got caught damaging a pitch in 2011 and labelled a cheat, was slagged of by Yorkshire for lacking team spirit and thinking he was bigger than the county the following year, told to leave his county, and has never shown any form in the past 2-3 years since.

If he was good enough then he has been managed VERY POORLY... if he wasnt good enough then this is clearly an example of VERY POOR selection... you pick

Carberry only came into the England squad for the Bangladesh tour when Andrew Strauss needed a breather after a busy 2009, he was not a permanent replacement at that time.

If he was the number one pick in the country at the time then why did Compton take over last year? Why is Joe Root in the job? Its clear that the fact he didnt smash 150 on debut against BD was enough to judge him for nearly 4 years, after which his county form has kept banging on the door.

Onions looked an England regular before he suffered a long term injury, very difficult to come back in at a time when Anderson, Broad and Bresnan made the pace bowling spots their own.

Tim Bresnan was capped in 2009 and has never made a full series to my knowledge. He isnt a regular, and has played less than Finn, and was capped before Tremlett came back into the fold.... so clearly there has been other options explored for one position, and at no time has that position been locked down.

Tredwell hasn't disgraced himself when called upon, very rare for county spinners to have a 30 or below average.

One test..... he wasnt disgraced, but one test was enough before they went back to someone else... which leads to the point, if you are sure on your pick even when a guy exceeds expectation, why not just pick the other guy for consistency? Test cricket is not an experimental ground!

Compton was unfortunate to have got dropped, but it was at the expense of accommodating Kevin Pietersen.

He was debuted in a test match WITH KP (Samit Patel batted at 6 btw), and the fact that it was the test AFTER Andrew Strauss retired would indicate maybe your assessment is very far from the truth. Joe Root had yet to be capped by that stage as far as I can remember.

Kerrigan got his one-off test cap when Swann needed a break, like Carberry he was not a permanent replacement.

Maybe the time to pick Panesar for some form seeing as though he was considered second best spinner and taken on the Ashes tour? More clouded selection.

Bairstow might be not living to the hype, doesn't help when his playing career has stalled for a variety of reasons.

Indeed... taken apart by the short ball vs Windies was a harsh reason to drop him, and he probably would have been dropped in India for Root anyway.... then replaces another guy who scored 2 x 100's in a similar amount of time he has had none, got 4 tests in a row to do something persuasive, and is still yet to find his game at this level.... will probably be dropped by another player with little thought behind it.

Trott is a Flower pick, Moores might have handed Trott a T20 debut in 2007 but wasn't selected for the longer formats.

I am pretty sure that Trott was smashing runs in the development squad under Moores and Fletcher after he qualified for England. You also ignore the background of all that was going on. The ECB won a battle when the EU redefined Kolpak around 2008, and the ECB and the England selectors had to be seen reading from the same song sheet. Picking another Saffer may have caused a s**t storm at a time where the ECB were bringing in new rules for Kolpak's limitation and trying to encourage English born talent in counties.

As soon as that matter was dealt with(and it was only about 2 weeks after Trott's debut that the ECB's battle with the EU courts judgement was published to the press), Trott was free to be picked without the politics.

Its clear without the black and white he would have been a test player in 2007 when Vaughan was breaking down and Bell was struggling for form.

[Kim]

"Its clear without the black and white he would have been a test player in 2007 when Vaughan was breaking down and Bell was struggling for form."

That's not quite right. Moores was indeed the driver behind getting Trotty into the England set up partly because he always got runs v Sussex (tho why they gave him a debut in T20 with a broken finger I will never know) but there was no way he was near Tests in 2007 simply because he had a terrible year - he averaged just 22 in first-class cricket that season. Giles then took over and sorted him out and gradually, over the next two years he built an irrisitable case for selection.

Hope mentions above that the media saw him as a Flower/Straass pick because he was selected for the 5th test after he and Bell made runs against Notts at Trent Bridge in front of them just before the test. Again that's not quite right (I doubt if Flower had even seen him bat at that stage). It tends to be forgotten that Trotty was in the squad for the 4th test of that series - Bops failed again so he was next man in line, despite the media blitherings about Tresco and Ramps.

[hopeforthebest]

"Its clear without the black and white he would have been a test player in 2007 when Vaughan was breaking down and Bell was struggling for form."

That's not quite right. Moores was indeed the driver behind getting Trotty into the England set up partly because he always got runs v Sussex (tho why they gave him a debut in T20 with a broken finger I will never know) but there was no way he was near Tests in 2007 simply because he had a terrible year - he averaged just 22 in first-class cricket that season. Giles then took over and sorted him out and gradually, over the next two years he built an irrisitable case for selection.

Hope mentions above that the media saw him as a Flower/Straass pick because he was selected for the 5th test after he and Bell made runs against Notts at Trent Bridge in front of them just before the test. Again that's not quite right (I doubt if Flower had even seen him bat at that stage). It tends to be forgotten that Trotty was in the squad for the 4th test of that series - Bops failed again so he was next man in line, despite the media blitherings about Tresco and Ramps.

I was only stating what Clove Eakin said during commentary, that he had seen Flower and Strauss at that game.

[sussexpob]

"Its clear without the black and white he would have been a test player in 2007 when Vaughan was breaking down and Bell was struggling for form."

That's not quite right. Moores was indeed the driver behind getting Trotty into the England set up partly because he always got runs v Sussex (tho why they gave him a debut in T20 with a broken finger I will never know) but there was no way he was near Tests in 2007 simply because he had a terrible year - he averaged just 22 in first-class cricket that season. Giles then took over and sorted him out and gradually, over the next two years he built an irrisitable case for selection

He was picked for the Lions 4 day game against the touring Indians in 2007, and as far as I remember was then injured and taken out of contention. He was then taken on the performance squad in that winter to India, where he made some scores for the England team. While the Moores/Flower/KP debacle was kicking off Trott also made 200 undefeated runs for the England Lions vs a NZ A team.

[hopeforthebest]

Kim, you said you doubted that Flower had never seen him bat but wasn't Flower batting coach under Moores when Trott was around?

[sussexpob]

Kim, you said you doubted that Flower had never seen him bat but wasn't Flower batting coach under Moores when Trott was around?

He was batting coach, but was only appointed a few days before Trott was placed in the OD teams in 2007. And you have to think that Schofield and the Team Manager position hadnt been created at that point, so a coach was a coach and had no selecting input.

[Kim]

"Its clear without the black and white he would have been a test player in 2007 when Vaughan was breaking down and Bell was struggling for form."

That's not quite right. Moores was indeed the driver behind getting Trotty into the England set up partly because he always got runs v Sussex (tho why they gave him a debut in T20 with a broken finger I will never know) but there was no way he was near Tests in 2007 simply because he had a terrible year - he averaged just 22 in first-class cricket that season. Giles then took over and sorted him out and gradually, over the next two years he built an irrisitable case for selection

He was picked for the Lions 4 day game against the touring Indians in 2007, and as far as I remember was then injured and taken out of contention. He was then taken on the performance squad in that winter to India, where he made some scores for the England team. While the Moores/Flower/KP debacle was kicking off Trott also made 200 undefeated runs for the England Lions vs a NZ A team.

Sure. But he still averaged 22 in 2007- he didn't even get 500 runs - so was nowhere near. He was lucky to stay in the Warwickshire team TBH. What turned it for him was Giles appointment and his unexpected selection for the performance squad that winter (he heard when he was in Las Vegas with his future wife and refused to believe it) - especially as Giles was coach to the performance squad. He actually started 2008 badly as well but it all suddenly clicked about a quarter way through the season when he got a big 100 at Gloucester. From then he was unstoppable.

[hopeforthebest]

"Its clear without the black and white he would have been a test player in 2007 when Vaughan was breaking down and Bell was struggling for form."

That's not quite right. Moores was indeed the driver behind getting Trotty into the England set up partly because he always got runs v Sussex (tho why they gave him a debut in T20 with a broken finger I will never know) but there was no way he was near Tests in 2007 simply because he had a terrible year - he averaged just 22 in first-class cricket that season. Giles then took over and sorted him out and gradually, over the next two years he built an irrisitable case for selection

He was picked for the Lions 4 day game against the touring Indians in 2007, and as far as I remember was then injured and taken out of contention. He was then taken on the performance squad in that winter to India, where he made some scores for the England team. While the Moores/Flower/KP debacle was kicking off Trott also made 200 undefeated runs for the England Lions vs a NZ A team.

sussex I suspect your desire to give so much credit to Moores is strongly influenced by Moores long service at the county of Sussex. Talk about bias.

[sussexpob]

Kim,

You also didnt comment on the Trott being SA thing. Do you not acknowledge that this would be a problem?

As suggested, even as early as 2007 with Vaughan seriesly struggling for fitness Trott was a serious contender for Vaughans position long term. Vaughan was eventually replaced in the squad by Flower in 2009 by Trott, his first squad he had input in. But before that, sensing the mood and the transition under Moores, Vaughan had done his best to fan the anti Saffer flames.

Vaughan for instance after getting dropped in 2009(or it might have been in 2008 under Moores, cant remember) leaked to the press that he had seen Jonathan Trott celebrating the SA victory in 2008 at Egbaston, and obviously a whole anti Saffer press surged into action demanding answers. That probably kept his debut back another year.

[sussexpob]

sussex I suspect your desire to give so much credit to Moores is strongly influenced by Moores long service at the county of Sussex. Talk about bias.

Matt Prior, Stuart Broad, Chris Tremlett, Graham Swann.... all capped under Moores in under a year.

He had Ambrose, Pattison and Bopara.... Still a better hit ratio than Flower.

And I wasnt even crediting Moores, actually said originally it was Fletcher who identified his talent

[Kim]

Don't think that chronology is right. Vaughans load of ******* (Trotty wasn't celebrating anything - he just talked to Harris and Steyn - former Warwickshire team mates) came out after Trott was selected as I remember.

Mind you I don't take much notice of stuff like that - Im a "if he's eligible and good enough, pick him wherever he's from" type

[sussexpob]

Don't think that chronology is right. Vaughans load of ******* (Trotty wasn't celebrating anything - he just talked to Harris and Steyn - former Warwickshire team mates) came out after Trott was selected as I remember.

Mind you I don't take much notice of stuff like that - Im a "if he's eligible and good enough, pick him wherever he's from" type

I did acknowledge it was either 2009 or 2008, so I honestly dont know the chronology if you want to correct me.

Even so, the ease of which a bitter Vaughan could attack Trott's credibility for me shows just how anti Saffer county cricket and the ECB were becoming.

And yes, I mean generally, not wanting to forward an anti-saffer notion myself.

[Making_Splinters]

Moores is a terrible coach.