England's Selection policy and player management systems

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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby Alviro Patterson » Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:44 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:These are averages from the 2009 Ashes, to the India win in 2011. Then the figures since then.

Cook 56/43
Strauss 35/33 (Compo 32)
Trott 56/40
KP 48/41
Bell 67/40
Prior 42/38

Anderson 27/29
Broad 28/28
Trem/Bres/Finn 26/38
Swann 30/28

I left out games against Bangladesh. I'd say the difficulty of the fixture list was similar both sides of the divide.


I'm surprised Broad has maintained his average considering he has barely done anything of note in recent times, or does it feel like that way.

Also Prior's figures have gone down post Dubai, when most of the time he has chipped in some valuable contributions with the bat.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby D/L » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:39 pm

sussexpob wrote:
I'm surprised Broad has maintained his average considering he has barely done anything of note in recent times, or does it feel like that way.


Broad is a top quality player. The way he bowled on those wickets in Abu Dhabi was impressive.... and he often bowled in the Ashes last time round without getting the rewards.

New bowlers haven't forced their way in mainly because the current bowlers are generally doing a good job


Since Bresnan really did well vs India at home he has gone 11 test matches with a 45 per wicket average. That is sustained and unacceptable form...

I know that figures are the only basis for many opinions, but that period should be seen in the context of injuries sustained.

Of course, there is always the matter of luck too. Broad has had more than his fair share.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:47 pm

I worked this out about a year ago, when Broad was getting a lot of negative comment, about how often he is the leading seam wicket taker in a series. And it's been good since then. Going back:

Joint leading wicket taker with Anderson of the seamers v Australia (missed an innings with injury)
Leading wicket taker of all bowlers in each series at home, and away to NZ.
Injured in India
Leading wicket taker at home to SA.
Leading wicket taker at home to WI.
Injured in SL.
Leading wicket taker of seamers in UAE, one behind Monty for all bowlers.
Leading wicket taker against India at home.
etc

His record hasn't always been fantastic, but it has at least been as good as his team mates, usually better.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:51 pm

Alviro Patterson wrote:Also Prior's figures have gone down post Dubai, when most of the time he has chipped in some valuable contributions with the bat.


Just last summer really. Up until then his stats were very good.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby m@tt » Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:54 pm

Alviro Patterson wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:These are averages from the 2009 Ashes, to the India win in 2011. Then the figures since then.

Cook 56/43
Strauss 35/33 (Compo 32)
Trott 56/40
KP 48/41
Bell 67/40
Prior 42/38

Anderson 27/29
Broad 28/28
Trem/Bres/Finn 26/38
Swann 30/28

I left out games against Bangladesh. I'd say the difficulty of the fixture list was similar both sides of the divide.


I'm surprised Broad has maintained his average considering he has barely done anything of note in recent times, or does it feel like that way.

Also Prior's figures have gone down post Dubai, when most of the time he has chipped in some valuable contributions with the bat.

I think it always feels that way with Broad! This year he has produced devastating spells against New Zealand and Australia. Last year he was very good in the UAE, though our good bowling performances were generally unnoticed thanks to mindless batting. He struggled in India last year and was dropped, but he was clearly unfit, and the bad performances were limited to a couple of games.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:17 pm

I know that figures are the only basis for many opinions, but that period should be seen in the context of injuries sustained


I wasnt aware that the test team was a rehabilitation zone for cricketers..... put simply, if he wasnt fit to perform to the elite level of a sport then he shouldnt have been picked.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:31 pm

I wonder if the amount of time it takes for Broad to get into a series, he needs more bowling going into matches? But as he is permanently injured, maybe that isn't achievable anyway.

Saker says Finn needs loads of bowling to bed in his new run up/action. Which suggests he should have spent last season with his county.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:49 pm

sussexpob wrote:A good bowling unit has at least 2 or 3 viable back up options.... Australia have loads of seamers you wouldnt mind playing, but England have got lazy and inflexible.

Anderson looked cream crackered at the end of the last Ashes, if he has to carry the attack again I wonder if he can stay fit


The most notable thing my stats regarding performances 2009-11 and 2011-13 showed is how the third seamer has struggled to contribute since 2011. Bresnan chipped in usefully last summer, but wasn't approaching being an equal partner. Without a plausible fifth bowler, and with a malfunctioning third seamer, Anderson continually picks up the slack. This can't be done without consequences, I would have thought. Anderson has finished the last two Ashes series looking drained. But many seem to think that's alright... Anderson can still bowl with pace if not forced to be a stock bowler.

Cook maybe needs to think about bowling his part timers more, even if that might not be what serves the team best in the moment.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:16 pm

sussexpob wrote:
I guess this was the original point of the article... are the coaches making the right decisions on players progression? He needs time but the only time he will get is in an Ashes test?


It's difficult for people on the outside to know. If someone comes in and shows a reluctance to prepare for games (just for example) England might leave him out, but it unlikely the public will know. Similarly if he looks hopeless in the nets. Like it was rumoured that Adil Rashid wasn't training well with England, but then when he was dropped, a lot of people were saying he was badly treated.

You could argue that these things should be found out with the Lions I guess.

And a line of progression can never be entirely predictable because of loss of form and injury.

Even so, it seems reasonable to expose inconsistency from Flower etc. There is certainly good reason to question some decisions, which it appears the press is reluctant to do.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby alfie » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:46 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
sussexpob wrote:A good bowling unit has at least 2 or 3 viable back up options.... Australia have loads of seamers you wouldnt mind playing, but England have got lazy and inflexible.

Anderson looked cream crackered at the end of the last Ashes, if he has to carry the attack again I wonder if he can stay fit


The most notable thing my stats regarding performances 2009-11 and 2011-13 showed is how the third seamer has struggled to contribute since 2011. Bresnan chipped in usefully last summer, but wasn't approaching being an equal partner. Without a plausible fifth bowler, and with a malfunctioning third seamer, Anderson continually picks up the slack. This can't be done without consequences, I would have thought. Anderson has finished the last two Ashes series looking drained. But many seem to think that's alright... Anderson can still bowl with pace if not forced to be a stock bowler.

Cook maybe needs to think about bowling his part timers more, even if that might not be what serves the team best in the moment.



Here we do agree. That third seamer is important because the last thing England need is to burn Anderson out early in a major series. There is no magic solution though , is there ? Onions is about the only option not to get a fair try in that period , and all the others had/have their supporters and some sort of case : can anyone seriously name someone else who ought to have been picked instead ?
The fifth bowler plan is obviously best if you have a player who is worth his place. But we found out twenty or more years ago that picking useful bits and pieces players ( Capel/Pringle/Irani/Ealham...I won't go on , too depressing ) is not the route to Test Match success. Stokes ? Woakes ? Maybe...I want to see a bit more of both , but perhaps tat will be more in the limited over scene for now.
At least Cook seems prepared to use Root a bit in the part timer role. Hopefully that can be developed.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:25 pm

But we found out twenty or more years ago that picking useful bits and pieces players ( Capel/Pringle/Irani/Ealham...I won't go on , too depressing ) is not the route to Test Match success


Half of that is bad selection though, not the players concerned. Ronnie Irani scored over fifty runs exactly 100 times in his career, and maintained an average that was on par with Hussain and Atherton. Yet he was flung in at 7 where he wasnt given a role to score runs properly, yet his batting record also meant that they didnt throw the ball to him much to make an impact... a guy that averages 42 with bat and under 30 with the ball should be given more than two tests to prove himself... much more!!

Ealham was the same. He bowled very creditably in the 1997 Ashes when given a chance, but got dropped simply because he wasnt contributing to the batting line up... he batted at 8 though with a very poor tail, so what he was exactly supposed to do with Robert Croft and Devon Malcolm in tow I dont know.

A bits and pieces player has to have a defined role, ie NOT BE a P&B PLAYER! Flintoff was successful because he matured into a proper new ball wicket threat, and even if his batting disintergrated to nothing, he would have been picked as a bowler.

A great example is also Shaun Pollock. If South Africa had done what England would have been tempted to do he would have batted at six and played a supporting role with the ball..... yet they were happy to define him as a new ball bowler and take the fact that his batting would probably suffer, and to a certain extent it did... he never became a mean batter, just added valuable contributions occasionally while becoming a world class bowler. A few South Africans still hark at what his batting could have been..... he was seen as a direct replacement to both grandfather and dad, ie could lead the attack and the batting line up, but thankfully he chose the one he felt he was more naturally suited to.

Another example is Paul Reiffel, who represents the last pick before a huge gap between him and Shane Watson for a regular all rounder slot..... Reiffel could form the basis of a 4 man specialist attack, his batting was a bonus..... I guess this is why Brendan Julian's chances were snuffed out even though as youngsters Julian was considered the better talent especially with bat.

This is why I dont mind Broad's batting not developing... England have been clear they wanted him as a new ball bowler, and that is how he has developed. Cant fault Flower on that.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:30 pm

I guess this in relation to England means that Woakes to a certain extent needs to work out whether or not he bowls or bats.... it , to me, makes people like Borthwick or Stokes rather redundant
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby D/L » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:58 pm

sussexpob wrote:
I know that figures are the only basis for many opinions, but that period should be seen in the context of injuries sustained


I wasnt aware that the test team was a rehabilitation zone for cricketers..... put simply, if he wasnt fit to perform to the elite level of a sport then he shouldnt have been picked.

Perhaps Bresnan was thought good enough to be selected even though not 100% fit. That seems to emphasise how highly regarded he is by the selectors.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby Alviro Patterson » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:10 pm

D/L wrote:
sussexpob wrote:
I know that figures are the only basis for many opinions, but that period should be seen in the context of injuries sustained


I wasnt aware that the test team was a rehabilitation zone for cricketers..... put simply, if he wasnt fit to perform to the elite level of a sport then he shouldnt have been picked.

Perhaps Bresnan was thought good enough to be selected even though not 100% fit. That seems to emphasise how highly regarded he is by the selectors.


Plus Alastair Cook and Dave Saker.
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Re: England's Selection policy and player management systems

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:45 pm

Alviro Patterson wrote:
D/L wrote:
sussexpob wrote:
I know that figures are the only basis for many opinions, but that period should be seen in the context of injuries sustained


I wasnt aware that the test team was a rehabilitation zone for cricketers..... put simply, if he wasnt fit to perform to the elite level of a sport then he shouldnt have been picked.

Perhaps Bresnan was thought good enough to be selected even though not 100% fit. That seems to emphasise how highly regarded he is by the selectors.


Plus Alastair Cook and Dave Saker.


In short, if you want a lesson on why you dont pick even the world best player when not fully fit, see World Cup 98 Final Brazil v France....

I dont per se dislike Bresnan, but it was clear that in recent times he needed to go away for a long period, get fit, find form.... throwing him to the lions half cocked did nothing for him, and no amount of your pro Bresnan propaganda can excuse his performance before this summer. He went too long serving up half paced pies. I will give you the argument that it might be because he was fit, but in that case he shouldnt play..... if he was fit then quite simply, he shouldnt be near the team

Its that inflexibility that is my problem, and not as you may think an attack on Bresnan.... England would have been better to look elsewhere in that 10-12 match period where he looked incredibly bad and let Bresnan come back.... at the end you then may have two functioning people in the selection pool to pick from, not one untested person coming in to replace the guy who cant maintain fitness because he is always rushed back.

I gave Bresnan lots of credit D/L in the Ashes, in fact I think I was the only person to back you up on that one, so I would very much like to see him in the team under the right circumstances.... I think he has a lot to give this side.
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