England's Selection policy and player management systems

[meninblue]

The amount of overlooked talented players in county cricket is a valid point made, problem is there isn't much opportunity for the county stalwart to further their game if they aren't involved with Team England.

Maybe it's the administration side of English cricket is the problem and that a new model is required, such as County Cricket and the ECB to be run as two separate entities.

The selectors and administrators of domestic cricket can do hell lot of difference in developing players much better if they work together in aspects like planning coaching,identifying specific requirements for specific players and things like that.They have more control and scope to experiment things at that level in a large scale.The various levels have to be run separately, but there should be co-ordination and some planned objectives which will be mutually beneficial for all levels.

[m@tt]

It's very easy to rant about selections or non-selections. Especially when they involve players you like or don't like. Battingforbell's favourite player is well known. SaintPowell screams bloody murder whenever a Hampshire player is overlooked. Shanky is Shanky. D/L doesn't like Prior. And so on.

Whereas very few posters are unbiased enough to see the great need for a fifth bowler in the side.

I think most if not all posters would agree that if we had an all-rounder who was good enough, that would be perfect. Stokes may be good enough in time. Bopara could have been and even could yet still be. Woakes could be, whilst Rashid's name won't go away from the discussion. But we keep winning with a 4 man attack, so England aren't going to weaken the side by adding an all rounder who either isn't good enough yet or not good enough at all.

[m@tt]

SaintPowell screams bloody murder whenever a Hampshire player is overlooked.

Not really, I am just smart enough to see county bias in full flow, would Bopara be given so many chances if he played for Derby or Leicester ?? would Mills be in performance squads if he played for Gloucester ??

The answer is NO, so many good players get overlooked based on the team they play for..Brooks and Taylor have had to move counties just to have a hope of being considered.

And the Taylor/Brooks issue I later referenced in my post. The Taylor issue annoyed me because he didnt have the luxury of facing his own attack, and within the first year of him moving, both Bairstow and Root were called up based on Div 2 runs. Whilst most Counties are represented in some way across the senior teams, Lions and EPP squads, there is definitely a feeling that feeling that you need to move to either a Div 1 team or just a supposedly bigger team, like with Davies and Harris - neither of whom went up a division but are now both playing for a London team.

[sussexpob]

I think the main point is not really about the management or selection policy, my point is really about WHO has Flower found and brought into the squad while Team Manager? We have these development models and Lions Tours, A tours, Performance Squads, but where are the results? One has to conclude we are either picking the wrong players or once the right players are in the system there is something that holds them back or does not make them any better.

Adi asks who are these players..... here is a list of players that Andy Flower is responsible for capping on debut.

Amjad Khan.... Took 1/112 in one test 4 years ago, has never played again
Onions (yet he was included in the tour of India under Fletcher and was put in an initial world cup squad for the 2007 world cup).... despite being the best bowler in county cricket in about 6 years, and despite being clearly the form guy, not even in the back up squad and not used.
Trott - As I said, Fletcher was waiting to cap him when he became England qualified, Flower waited another 2 years.
Carberry - One test wonder
Finn - Hasnt developed into the great bowler, getting worse
Tredwell - One cap wonder - was capped with a FC average of nearly 40
Morgan - ODI specialist that didnt work
Shehzad - One test wonder.... looked a promising player but career and attitude was destroyed by subsequent international snubs
Samit Patel - The Asian pitch specialist that was picked as a second spinner - took no wickets and looked woeful on turning wickets - Test career over after 5 tests
Bairstow - 12 tests without a 100 so far
Taylor - Part of the biggest partnership for England in the SA series with KP, dropped despite continuing heavy run scoring.
Compton - Given less than a year despite his county performances being consistently good over many years.
Kerrigan - One cap wonder inside which he looked like the new Ian Salisbury
Woakes - One cap wonder, apparently not as good as an Essex 19 year old with no wickets or runs.

Out of sixteen players he has caped, 4 have played more than 10 times (Finn, Bairstow, Trott and Compton), four are still in the team (above list plus Root, Minus Compton).... SIX have played one test only, with Taylor playing TWO..... nearly HALF his new caps have been utter failures instantly dropped from the squad!!

Realistically Trott is his only long term find( but he wasnt really a find) with Root, Bairstow may be dropped very soon along with Finn, who gets dropped all the time.....

That to me is very worrying to see. For all the coaches, squads and systems there is very little to show for it.

[Gingerfinch]

I agree with ms. He and others have really ballsed up the number six position. Morgan looked good in ODI's, and to be fair, looked to have the temperament to succeed in test cricket. Sadly, his technique wasn't suited. Patel? Well, that was the wrong choice from day one. Then there was Bopara, the elegant yet mentally weak(well imo). Taylor got one test, may have been two? Now we have Bairstow, who is clinging on to a place, thanks to plenty of chances to shine.

[Alviro Patterson]

Adi asks who are these players..... here is a list of players that Andy Flower is responsible for capping on debut.

Amjad Khan.... Took 1/112 in one test 4 years ago, has never played again
Onions (yet he was included in the tour of India under Fletcher and was put in an initial world cup squad for the 2007 world cup).... despite being the best bowler in county cricket in about 6 years, and despite being clearly the form guy, not even in the back up squad and not used.
Trott - As I said, Fletcher was waiting to cap him when he became England qualified, Flower waited another 2 years.
Carberry - One test wonder
Finn - Hasnt developed into the great bowler, getting worse
Tredwell - One cap wonder - was capped with a FC average of nearly 40
Morgan - ODI specialist that didnt work
Shehzad - One test wonder.... looked a promising player but career and attitude was destroyed by subsequent international snubs
Samit Patel - The Asian pitch specialist that was picked as a second spinner - took no wickets and looked woeful on turning wickets - Test career over after 5 tests
Bairstow - 12 tests without a 100 so far
Taylor - Part of the biggest partnership for England in the SA series with KP, dropped despite continuing heavy run scoring.
Compton - Given less than a year despite his county performances being consistently good over many years.
Kerrigan - One cap wonder inside which he looked like the new Ian Salisbury
Woakes - One cap wonder, apparently not as good as an Essex 19 year old with no wickets or runs.

Out of sixteen players he has caped, 4 have played more than 10 times (Finn, Bairstow, Trott and Compton), four are still in the team (above list plus Root, Minus Compton).... SIX have played one test only, with Taylor playing TWO..... nearly HALF his new caps have been utter failures instantly dropped from the squad!!

Realistically Trott is his only long term find( but he wasnt really a find) with Root, Bairstow may be dropped very soon along with Finn, who gets dropped all the time.....

That to me is very worrying to see. For all the coaches, squads and systems there is very little to show for it.

Your argument makes no sense and doesn't look at the wider picture. For a start Woakes, Kerrigan, Bairstow, Taylor, Finn are at the infancy of their international careers and have time on their side.

- Trott is a Flower pick, Moores might have handed Trott a T20 debut in 2007 but wasn't selected for the longer formats.
- Onions looked an England regular before he suffered a long term injury, very difficult to come back in at a time when Anderson, Broad and Bresnan made the pace bowling spots their own.
- Carberry only came into the England squad for the Bangladesh tour when Andrew Strauss needed a breather after a busy 2009, he was not a permanent replacement at that time.
- Kerrigan got his one-off test cap when Swann needed a break, like Carberry he was not a permanent replacement.
- Compton was unfortunate to have got dropped, but it was at the expense of accommodating Kevin Pietersen.
- Shazhad suffered from injuries and form since getting injured in the 2011 World Cup, along with being disruptive at his former county.
- Tredwell hasn't disgraced himself when called upon, very rare for county spinners to have a 30 or below average.
- Bairstow might be not living to the hype, doesn't help when his playing career has stalled for a variety of reasons.
- Taylor has only scored 48 runs in his 3 test innings, Bairstow surpassed that in one innings in the last South Africa test. Also Taylor is far more suited to batting 3 to 5.

The only real fault with Flower was for the selections of Amjad Khan and Eoin Morgan, although the latter selection could be justified due to his international experience and personal qualities.

Flower was responsible for bringing in Chris Tremlett for the last Ashes series down under after a 3 year absence, a left wing pick which was criticised but proved to be a masterstroke. Bresnan was also a Flower pick after a 3 year gap from making his England limited overs debut against Sri Lanka in 2006, an experimental selection by Duncan Fletcher.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Its difficult to know who is responsible for picking who. For example, Tremlett seems to have been a Saker pick for the last Ashes tour. Or Flower would ask Miller to produce a limited overs SLA who bats, and he was given Yardy. Cook was the designer of KP's return to the team. It seems unwarranted to make Flower seem he is the only one making decisions. Geoff Miller was the one who took the blame for Pattinson, back in the Moores days, and the Chairman of Selector takes final responsibility for the choices..

[Making_Splinters]

Cook's comments today hardly inspire confidence in the England think tank:

"We are unsure of pretty much two places and it's exciting because everyone in the squad knows that and watching that competition grow, if someone grabs that opportunity he is going to find himself in a good place"

Must be a good confidence booster for Bairstow to hear his skipper public saying they are unsure of his place in the side.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Seeing he was dropped for the last game, he might realise that though.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Maybe Root is a bit surprised to hear he's not definitely opening...?

[hopeforthebest]

Whilst listening to a Warwickshire commentary during the 10 day break between tests in 2009, the commentator said all the selectors. Flower and Strauss were at the game. Bell made a century and I believe Trott did as well. The outcome was Bell came into the team to replace the injured KP and Trott replaced Bopara at the Oval. The story came out that Flower and Strauss made the decisions.

[hopeforthebest]

Maybe Root is a bit surprised to hear he's not definitely opening...?

Why should he be surprised after his ashes form and the inclusion of Carberry in the squad.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Wouldn't it be a bit hasty to drop him down the order after one series in which he had some success? I don't really think they will move him, at first anyway.

[Making_Splinters]

Maybe Root is a bit surprised to hear he's not definitely opening...?

Anyone coming into the side is essentially coming in with a message of, "We're not really sure you're good enough but your the best of a dodgy lot".

Hardly the best message to be giving.

[D/L]

Maybe Root is a bit surprised to hear he's not definitely opening...?

Why should he be surprised after his ashes form and the inclusion of Carberry in the squad.

Some confusion of form with scoring there, I think.

Any road up, which touring team would leave its shores without at least three opening batsmen in the squad? If the third hadn't been Carberry, it would probably have been Compton.