There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

[sussexpob]

Flower didn't pick the touring squad, Miller, Whitaker and Giles did. Flower isn't responsible for Tremlett (or Panesar, who is our second best spinner, however his season went). You can Flower shouldn't have picked Tremlett in Brisbane. But if Miller waved through Tremlett's tour selection on Flower/Saker's say so, knowing that he wasn't right for the tour, then it's Miller error that Tremlett is there. If all Miller was doing was second guessing what Flower wanted, he wasn't doing his job either. Flower can't be expected to watch CC, he relies on others to produce the best squad available.

Would all be very relevant save for one massive detail..... Flower is on the selection panel

[Arthur Crabtree]

I thought he was removed about two years ago. Are you sure?

About the same time selectors started going on tours to help with team selection so their intentions were kept in place even after the squad was picked.

[sussexpob]

I thought he was removed about two years ago. Are you sure?

About the same time selectors started going on tours to help with team selection so their intentions were kept in place even after the squad was picked.

Whitaker's words on taking the chairman job two months ago....

"am honoured to have been invited to be national selector and greatly look forward to working with the newly appointed managing director of England cricket, my fellow selectors – England team director Andy Flower and one-day coach Ashley Giles - as we seek to build on the recent success of England teams"

[sussexpob]

And I have no debate in my mind who, out of the three, had the most power in the selection committee.

Remember that Whitaker was only a part time advisor to Miller, so my guess is his role as Chairman of Selectors has no veto power over Flower in real terms... it would be suprising to have such a loose selector become boss, especially when in essence it is Flower who decides who gets on the pitch

[Arthur Crabtree]

I can't find anything definitive on the ECB site, but unless it was changed again, Flower is only a selector in the sense he picks from the squads he is given. It might have changed when he became director of cricket. But I can't find any reference either way apart from that quote from Whitaker. Again, as I say, there should be an on tour selector working with FLower to pick the final team. Presumably Miller had, or theoretically had, overall responsibility to sign the squad off, since he was Chairman of Selectors. He would liaise between Whitaker, who was watching CC, and the team managers.

[hopeforthebest]

I can't find anything definitive on the ECB site, but unless it was changed again, Flower is only a selector in the sense he picks from the squads he is given. It might have changed when he became director of cricket. But I can't find any reference either way apart from that quote from Whitaker. Again, as I say, there should be an on tour selector working with FLower to pick the final team. Presumably Miller had, or theoretically had, overall responsibility to sign the squad off, since he was Chairman of Selectors. He would liaise between Whitaker, who was watching CC, and the team managers.

I'm pretty sure that Andy flower sits in with the panel when a squad is selected.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Well, ok. But the point still stands that the COS stands at a head of a branch of people associated with the England team, and a pair of selectors who watch CC, as well as his own time spent watching CC.

What would Flower say, if he asked for Tremlett, and Miller told him he's bowling pastry? That he was good three years ago and he wants him now? Though obviously he's been seen in the nets with England.

As I've said before, Miller does seem reluctant to make decisions and seems to just deliver to Flower all plausible options when he picks a squad.

[sussexpob]

Well, ok. But the point still stands that the COS stands at a head of a branch of people associated with the England team, and a pair of selectors who watch CC, as well as his own time spent watching CC.

What would Flower say, if he asked for Tremlett, and Miller told him he's bowling pastry? That he was good three years ago and he wants him now? Though obviously he's been seen in the nets with England.

As I've said before, Miller does seem reluctant to make decisions and seems to just deliver to Flower all plausible options when he picks a squad.

Look at Flower as a football manager, with Giles as the U-21 manager and Miller as the Chief scout, with Whitaker a player scout.

Flower picks the team, he makes the decisions based on the information passed up the chain. Giles picks his own team but Flower overseas him. Miller's job is to present to Flower the ideas on players coming through, based on reports from Whitaker.

At no stage is anyone but Flower making the decision. Flower is Director, head of national team section of the ECB. He in no way answered to the Chairman of Selectors, its simply an advisory board that should be there to assist him.

I dont know where the idea that he stopped Selecting coming from. He, for isntance, took full responsibility (and used the language I the whole way through) when England didnt pick Monty in Ahmedabad.

[sussexpob]

Another point to make is that Flower stepped down as ODI coach for officially giving more time to tactical decisions.... I would have thought that meant checking more players development out to base his decisions on. I certainly dont think he can hide behind his selection panel.

I mean a good indication of how a system works could be Man United.... Alex Ferguson never bought a player he didnt see, he had advisors to tell him who to check out, and then he would go to watch them. I assume that Flower, when time allows of footage allows, does this too.... and if not, then he has no one to blame.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Flower picks from the squad on tour, with the on tour selector, which explains Ahmedabad. This idea of Flower in overall charge of selection seems to be guesswork. Miller takes, or did, responsibility for squad selection. He has a press conference and announces it. It's never been presented as Flower's squad. I remember Flower saying about the selection of Yardy, that he asked the selectors for a limited overs SLA, and was given Yardy, for example.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I've found a blog that says Moores was not a selector. Maybe it was him I remember losing that role, and Flower acquired again at some point. But when Flower spoke about how it worked, and used the Yardy example to explain, he seemed to imply he wasn't on the panel.

[hopeforthebest]

Sussex your suggestion that Flower is a tyrant and that Geoff Miller some kind of lap dog is ludicrous, Miller is not the sort of character who would remain in post simply to announce Flower's selections to the media. If Flower was remotely as bad as you paint him he would have been sent packing by now. You are obsessed with the idea that all England's ills can be placed at the door of the ECB and Flower when you have little evidence to back that up.

[sussexpob]

Sussex your suggestion that Flower is a tyrant and that Geoff Miller some kind of lap dog is ludicrous

Saying that your boss doesnt answer to you is the same as saying he is a tyrant, and you are his lapdog?

[sussexpob]

Flower picks from the squad on tour, with the on tour selector, which explains Ahmedabad. This idea of Flower in overall charge of selection seems to be guesswork. Miller takes, or did, responsibility for squad selection

I've found a blog that says Moores was not a selector. Maybe it was him I remember losing that role, and Flower acquired again at some point. But when Flower spoke about how it worked, and used the Yardy example to explain, he seemed to imply he wasn't on the panel.

There is no Chairman if Selectors. Miller simply carries the title "National Selector", who's job it is to run the selection panel. He is the only full time selector, originally Giles was appointed as part-time back up along with Whitaker.... neither were dedicated full time, and until 2009 or 2010 I dont think Miller was full time either.

Moores was never involved, but then he was also never Team Director. Andy Flower was the first and only team director of English cricket, a role inside which he manages the whole of the cricketing output of the side, for which he answers to Hugh Morris alone, the Managing Director of English cricket.....

Hugh Morris makes the plans of Flower reality by dealing with the ECB Board to make sure that resources are adequate, and he been instrumental in a lot of the increase support of the national team and the increase of the backroom staff.

Lets make no bones though, as Team Director Flower has ultimate power to decide who plays and what happens with Team England. He oversees all the coaches, players, selectors, etc

[braveneutral]

Funny I thought that Flower was no longer a selector but I don't know where I got that idea.