There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:46 pm

Worth pointing out that Miller's title was national selector, not Chairman of Selectors, and Flower is team director and not team coach. But I've never heard Flower or Miller say anything to suggest Flower was in charge of selection, in fact, the contrary. Further to the degree Flower is in charge, during the Perth Test Strauss said the captain makes decisions for what happens on the pitch, regarding game plans, batting order, field settings, etc. Vaughan and Fletcher both said the smae about Fletcher's time.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:42 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Worth pointing out that Miller's title was national selector, not Chairman of Selectors, and Flower is team director and not team coach


Its worth more than merely "pointing out". The Schofield Report recommended a total restructing of the ECB, and this manifested itself at the top with a complete restructuring of how the England National Team was setup in the organisation.

The cricketing side now forms one of the three entities of the ECB. The Managing Director's role at the top of the Team tree was created to make sure that the recommendations of the report were carried out. This included the setting up of a national academy for youngsters with the best coaches, the EPP being created, the Lions and A Tours being revamped, and the England team getting the funding they needed for development, fitness, tactical awareness, advisors, etc etc. Hugh Morris' job is therefore to manage everything that equates team England, not just the national team. I think Hugh Morris also has the job of managing the Future Tours Programme, but I may be wrong. The other brances of the ECB relate to County cricket, Finance, and improving grassroots and Village cricket.... they are formed under a board of Directors above Morris who make the decisions on the MD position in English Cricket.

Moores was the last strict coach England had. His role changed once Morris created the Team Director role, which went to Flower. Flower's job as Team Director was to manage everything that had direct effect to the performance of the national team. Inside this role comes selection, the management of the performance and fitness coaches, the overseeing of tactical advice used in tests. This role superceeded the current ideas of technical coaches.... Flower has never been "England Coach", he oversees a team of coaches, stats men, video analysisers, dieticians, masseurs, bag men, mental health experts, kit men.... the idea from Schofield was obvious, that England needed to branch out and fully modernise, to have a process and Hierarchy that allowed more facilities.

Flower manages all that, and its not guesswork to say that he trumps everyone in the National Team setup. The only person he answers to is his boss, Hugh Morris. Their relationship works on the basis that Morris provides all Flower needs, and Flower then provides the management of those assets given, with advisor staff under him providing the micromanagement. This is also why Flower also trumps Giles as overall coach, its his role. Giles is merely someone who has responsibility delegated to him, but the accountability for that change lies with Flower. He has to answer why the ODI team is not performing still, its still his job!

Miller in essence is just like another coach. He micromanages an area of selection but his decision making power lies with Flower. Flower obviously has to rely on reports and recommendations from Miller, with support from Whitaker/Giles, and although Miller might be the one in press conferences discussing "his squad", again its not true. Its just delegation from Flower!

That is why when someone says "but its not Flower who controls Saker's recommendations to Miller on Tremlett".... sorry you are wrong. He manages both of those people and has final say, and the nature of delegation in business means that you take overall responsibility for this.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:12 pm

I understand all that, Flower is head coach in charge of all England related business. But I've never heard any suggestion that he is in charge of selection, from either Flower or Miller. So that's strange. Why do they seem to go out of their way to suggest the opposite? Taking Moores off the selection panel happened post the Schofield report, as was the whole of the Moores era. When Miller retired, press reports assumed he was in charge of selection. It's good that you've made clear Flower's role. I'll keep an open mind about the selection part.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:33 pm

Anderson, Swann and KP have been left out of the ODI squad after the Ashes. Trott of course won't be there. When England try to deal with player workload, it's usually the ODI side that suffers. Which I don't mind, but it's a year before the WC in the country where the WC is going to be played. We now have an inexperienced squad, where previously it was thought good ODI sides have a lot of caps.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Kim » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:03 pm

Noone new at all is there ? I thought they might have a look at Mooen Ali to assess if he really has come on or is just enjoying the Div 2 effect.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:23 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:I understand all that, Flower is head coach in charge of all England related business. But I've never heard any suggestion that he is in charge of selection, from either Flower or Miller. So that's strange. Why do they seem to go out of their way to suggest the opposite? Taking Moores off the selection panel happened post the Schofield report, as was the whole of the Moores era. When Miller retired, press reports assumed he was in charge of selection. It's good that you've made clear Flower's role. I'll keep an open mind about the selection part.


I dont know if your being sarcastic or not, but thats the way I see it. Graveney originally rejected the selectors job and took the national development role because as rumour had it, he saw it as a step down from his job he had. He went on tour as per schofield recommendations under Moores in the Windies, but then the Team Director job was outlined and he made a lot of comments, leading to the ECB giving Miller their support for the new role and farming Graveney somewhere else he was a lot happier in. Originially as well, Miller even didnt nearly take the job because the pay level was considered too low for his full time involvement, having being made lower due to the heightened pay given to the Director role, which increased to a reported £300,000. I even remember Nasser Hussain complaining at the time because the ECB moved a lot of old hash around to new roles, and Hussain had been on the Commissions board that provided the report and felt that the changes were not made as recommended, as the coach would still have most power, making the new roles rather defunct.

Moores role was similar. He was seen as a coaches coach at a time when it was seen that a lot of his spectrum would be limited, and he was therefore the best technical coach in the business. When it became apparent that the ECB's interpretation of Schofield would include a more management role for the coach position, Moores was quickly dumped, and like Graveney was recategorised in a role more suitable to his strenghts at the national academy. it was clear, however poorly Moores dealt with his time in England(and the same could be said about KP with Flower in 2012 - but that did not lead to him being sacked, obviously rightfully so) that he was never the man they intended to take on that responsibility.

Flower then took over and Miller, already in his position after Graveney had run from the job after the Windies, then had to wait to the last minute to annouce the contracts and development squads for the year because Flower's say so was required. The ECB had tendered the job with lots of consideration, and because people had dropped out the decision was very late..... I think this was indication from the start that Flower's eye was required to validate anything Miller does or did at the time.

I also question Miller's influence in the current system. I think, judging on all thats said, that this current squad has Giles and Whitaker all over it, making me think that Flower trusts their opinion over his head man.

Whitaker for isntance made no secret that Bairstow and Ballance were two guys he dedicated much time to watching this year, and Flower has also made many statements to support the former, and his thinking that he both (a) is a good batsman (b) he keeps and therefore is a shoe in for the squad. Giles for his part spoke out before the selection committee met in October to state the case for Rankin(said he suited pitches) and Stokes (who he said working under in ODI's had much to impress).

Stokes is a curious case, especially when in the Lions Tour last winter Flower headed a meeting on arrival to throw him back home. I think Miller had been out there with Dave Parsons, and Stokes had been warned previously about drinking. When Flower arrived Stokes was whipped straight to a selectors meeting inside which Stokes got the boot from Flower, the latter stating afterwards that Flower or Miller did not take the time to speak to him on a 1-1 basis after. It would therefore seem that Giles won this selection, especially when he went out of his way in the press to state the case for Stokes attitude working under him... even if it conflicted with Miller and Flower. The whole issue again validates Flower's power, as no decision was made on kicking Stokes out until he arrived to chair the meeting.

I guess with Tremlett there has always been a shared belief, backed by the bowling coach, of his physical attributes being paramount to the cause.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby meninblue » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:38 pm

I have felt that Ashley has a lot of say in team selection or the top level planning with regards to selection.I am referring to Rankins progress from Ireland to England squads after having some influence in him showing permanent association with England domestic cricket system.Whatever happened about Rankins career choices, Ashleys new role at ECB and Warwickshire as well as his comments and eventually Rankins progress to main squad gives me a feeling Ashley has a huge say. He's already played ODI and T20.Now in test squad as well.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:02 pm

clubcricketeradi wrote:I have felt that Ashley has a lot of say in team selection or the top level planning with regards to selection.I am referring to Rankins progress from Ireland to England squads after having some influence in him showing permanent association with England domestic cricket system.Whatever happened about Rankins career choices, Ashleys new role at ECB and Warwickshire as well as his comments and eventually Rankins progress to main squad gives me a feeling Ashley has a huge say. He's already played ODI and T20.Now in test squad as well.


I think this selection shows Flower's esteem in Giles, and with all the coyness about Flower's future even before this series began, I would expect within a 3- 24 month period Giles will have the full Director's job. I would say if i had to guess that Flower will quit by the end of the English summer. He has been directly asked about his future and has brushed the subject off, leading some people to think that Miller/Morris yo-yo'ing around the ECB will be followed up in January with the notification that Flower will stand down, but I cant see it happening that early. I think at this point we can write off the sack for Flower. I think even a 5-0 drubbing here would not even begin to rock the boat enough for the ECB to take that decision, whether rightly or wrongly.

I think England are now such an entity that changes across the board are needed to really notice much effect. Giles is, in essence, Flower MK II, so I doubt that the change there would make much of a difference. And the nature of Flower's tenure means that the team has become so wide and all encompassing, rafting the changes all across the structure would be catastrophic.

I think Schofield was needed, despite the scorn at the time. It provided England a more focused gameplan in the long run. The problem is that the system now is overblown, there seems to many chefs in the kitchen, all with different opinions and different aims. Australia seem to have benefitted from a rather unflustered approach, and tbf I think that has increased the intensity in their squad.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby m@tt » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Kim wrote:Noone new at all is there ? I thought they might have a look at Mooen Ali to assess if he really has come on or is just enjoying the Div 2 effect.

He's with the EPP at the moment, and put it a good showing in the first game they played. One of the older members of the team too, so England must still have hoped for him. Had an excellent season last year, needs to follow that up and show the consistency that's been lacking from his game so far.

As for the selection discussion, a lot of presumptions being made. Would love to know what goes on in the meetings, and what they think of various players.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:10 pm

Kim wrote:Noone new at all is there ? I thought they might have a look at Mooen Ali to assess if he really has come on or is just enjoying the Div 2 effect.


His SR of over 100 presents an instant problem for Giles. He might actually push us to competitive scores away from home
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Kim » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:14 pm

sussexpob wrote:
clubcricketeradi wrote:I have felt that Ashley has a lot of say in team selection or the top level planning with regards to selection.I am referring to Rankins progress from Ireland to England squads after having some influence in him showing permanent association with England domestic cricket system.Whatever happened about Rankins career choices, Ashleys new role at ECB and Warwickshire as well as his comments and eventually Rankins progress to main squad gives me a feeling Ashley has a huge say. He's already played ODI and T20.Now in test squad as well.


I think this selection shows Flower's esteem in Giles, and with all the coyness about Flower's future even before this series began, I would expect within a 3- 24 month period Giles will have the full Director's job. I would say if i had to guess that Flower will quit by the end of the English summer. He has been directly asked about his future and has brushed the subject off, leading some people to think that Miller/Morris yo-yo'ing around the ECB will be followed up in January with the notification that Flower will stand down, but I cant see it happening that early. I think at this point we can write off the sack for Flower. I think even a 5-0 drubbing here would not even begin to rock the boat enough for the ECB to take that decision, whether rightly or wrongly.

I think England are now such an entity that changes across the board are needed to really notice much effect. Giles is, in essence, Flower MK II, so I doubt that the change there would make much of a difference. And the nature of Flower's tenure means that the team has become so wide and all encompassing, rafting the changes all across the structure would be catastrophic.

I think Schofield was needed, despite the scorn at the time. It provided England a more focused gameplan in the long run. The problem is that the system now is overblown, there seems to many chefs in the kitchen, all with different opinions and different aims. Australia seem to have benefitted from a rather unflustered approach, and tbf I think that has increased the intensity in their squad.


Interested to know why you say that and on what basis. You can probably already tell I don't agree!
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Kim » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:15 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Kim wrote:Noone new at all is there ? I thought they might have a look at Mooen Ali to assess if he really has come on or is just enjoying the Div 2 effect.


His SR of over 100 presents an instant problem for Giles. He might actually push us to competitive scores away from home


7 one day 1oos as well. Worth a look in this series Id have thought. Oh well.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:37 pm

Kim wrote:
Interested to know why you say that and on what basis. You can probably already tell I don't agree!


Put simply, becuase the Director oversees everything yet delegates much of the role to his advisors, unless all the coaches and tactical backroom staff change with the coach, you are still going to have the same machine producing the same answers, using the same approach. Giles may offer different viewpoints as to selection, but the players he selects will then be brought into a system that is Flower all over.

Do England want to radically change the foundations of the team ethic simply because they change coach? Is it practical to identify the best people for several jobs, when replace them and expect better?

In my opinion I think the ECB would feel that Hugh Morris and Flower's vision of bringing Team England into the modern game is an approach worth sticking with to the death. They have invested heavily in it, they commissioned reports, they acted on those reports, they made cookbooks and hired brains to make reports, and Giles would represent a rather unproven and expendable commodity to force such a dramatic change in the ethos.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Kim » Tue Dec 10, 2013 3:49 pm

The bowling and batting coached will change in a flash (Thorpe and Pop Welch will come in). The big change will be the environment - and this may be good or bad - because Giles and Flower are very different people - Ash is far more relaxed and fun, for want of a better word.

I also don't think Ash will just accept the status quo either ; when he took over the horrendous mess at Warwickshire the first thing he did was perform a fundamental review of the whole clubs cricket structure and Id guess hed do something similar with England, although he's unlikely to have the same authority to change things.

Will be interesting.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:15 pm

Kim wrote:
sussexpob wrote:
Kim wrote:Noone new at all is there ? I thought they might have a look at Mooen Ali to assess if he really has come on or is just enjoying the Div 2 effect.


His SR of over 100 presents an instant problem for Giles. He might actually push us to competitive scores away from home


7 one day 1oos as well. Worth a look in this series Id have thought. Oh well.

"The beard to be feared" I believe he is known as. As discussed earlier in the thread, he's around 26, so no kid, but with his best years still ahead of him. I rate him quite a lot, although I haven't seen him bat this year (div 2 and all that). His stats suggest that he's a more useful spinner too
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