There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:41 pm

England have four pace bowlers and one spinner. At least they could pick their best spinner, irrespective of other factors. Leach isn't the new Monty with the bat.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Making_Splinters » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:46 pm

You can say that, and indeed, it makes logical sense, Arthur, but that's not the way England have looked at it for a long time. In many ways it's exactly the worst time that Leach could have come into the side. Home pitches are unlikely to do much for him and Pakistan and India are two of the best at playing spin in the world.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:02 pm

Even in UK, there will be times in a game when a spinner will be the best option, even against Asian sides. And your best spinner your best option of all.

How well did Underwood and Swann do at home.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:28 pm

If Moeen hits county cricket and scores bags of runs, then its possible he can come back as a batsman in the top 6, and a part time secondary spin option.

I think its pretty clear though that his career as our main spin threat is over. Hopefully Leach gets a good amount of time in the team to prove himself
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby alfie » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:40 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:England have four pace bowlers and one spinner. At least they could pick their best spinner, irrespective of other factors. Leach isn't the new Monty with the bat.


I was quite impressed with the sensible and determined efforts of Leach with the bat. I certainly wouldn't mark him down on that score ; but it is clear Moeen is - despite this rotten winter tour - a far better bat. The question is : how much better Leach is with the ball ? Not sure this match proves too much : he was OK , but hardly a wrecker. And Moeen has had some pretty handy bowling performances in the past (though most have , I think , come when a big score and/or some early pace bowling damage have set things up). I'd agree Leach is the more "natural" bowler but need to see more before inking him in for all occasions.

If the pace men are going to do most of the work at home (most games) , and Moeen gets back in some form , I wouldn't be surprised to see him back. Suspect we will see both when they next tour Asia but that is getting ahead of ourselves for now.

There is another spinner at Somerset too...
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby alfie » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:42 pm

sussexpob wrote:If Moeen hits county cricket and scores bags of runs, then its possible he can come back as a batsman in the top 6, and a part time secondary spin option.

I think its pretty clear though that his career as our main spin threat is over. Hopefully Leach gets a good amount of time in the team to prove himself


I don't see Moeen as a top six bat. Not if they want to improve the - all too fragile - batting. Seven or eight - good. Higher than that ...is he really better than Vince or Malan ?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:00 am

alfie wrote: I don't see Moeen as a top six bat. Not if they want to improve the - all too fragile - batting. Seven or eight - good. Higher than that ...is he really better than Vince or Malan ?


Id have to guess that Moeen has a better FC record than Stokes, Stoneman, Vince and Malan. Considering the fact he has played in every single batting position in the top 9, and has never been given a role, often coming in at the end with the tail (and our tail has done nothing recently), the fact he has scored nearly 20 x 50s and 5 x 100s I think is a pretty damn good return. Not sure what any batsman can accomplish coming in at that low. Had he, like Stokes, been almost exclusively played in one position in the top 6, you might find he actually has something.

Just a point to underline how difficult it is to score..... Stokes has come in below 7 in tests 5 times...... he averages 2, with 80% of his innings being ducks.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:16 am

sussexpob wrote:
alfie wrote: I don't see Moeen as a top six bat. Not if they want to improve the - all too fragile - batting. Seven or eight - good. Higher than that ...is he really better than Vince or Malan ?


Id have to guess that Moeen has a better FC record than Stokes, Stoneman, Vince and Malan. Considering the fact he has played in every single batting position in the top 9, and has never been given a role, often coming in at the end with the tail (and our tail has done nothing recently), the fact he has scored nearly 20 x 50s and 5 x 100s I think is a pretty damn good return. Not sure what any batsman can accomplish coming in at that low. Had he, like Stokes, been almost exclusively played in one position in the top 6, you might find he actually has something.

Just a point to underline how difficult it is to score..... Stokes has come in below 7 in tests 5 times...... he averages 2, with 80% of his innings being ducks.


Moeen does have a better FC batting record than Stokes, although a fair proportion of his time has been spent in division 2. And Stokes has a better conversion rate. But you're right, Moeen is (or was) primarily a top order bat - I think he was usually number 3 for Worcestershire. His county saw him as a batsman who could bowl as a part timer. For England to pick him as a primary spinner and lower order bat to get bonus runs - it's no wonder it hasn't gone so well.

If Moeen does come back, it has to be as a batsman primarily, and as a second spin option. His best returns have been, unsurprisingly, when he's been in the middle order.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:31 pm

SP and BFL's points about Moeen coming back as a specialist bat and second spin option makes such good sense that I expect England to disregard it out of hand and bring him back at 8 as the sole spinner once India arrive

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby andy » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:16 pm

Hmm maybe Mo could do a job in the top order if he is left alone to just bat, which i think is what he needs.....we haven't got anything to lose, stick him at 3 for the summer and see....can't do any worse than vince!
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Making_Splinters » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:34 pm

Ali would have to score very heavily at the start of the season, combined with none of the other options doing similar, for there to be any reason to be considering him at the start of the season.

I've in the past said that he could be batting higher up the order and has the talent to do so, but, if we're going to drop a player then they need to go away and earn their spot back.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:37 pm

Making_Splinters wrote:Ali would have to score very heavily at the start of the season, combined with none of the other options doing similar, for there to be any reason to be considering him at the start of the season.

I've in the past said that he could be batting higher up the order and has the talent to do so, but, if we're going to drop a player then they need to go away and earn their spot back.


Indeed. I did say he had to score "bags of runs". But if he does start smashing attacks around again for fun, then his case is quite an interesting one. Like I said, he did well in batting for the lot he was given.

bigfluffylemon wrote:Moeen does have a better FC batting record than Stokes, although a fair proportion of his time has been spent in division 2. And Stokes has a better conversion rate. But you're right, Moeen is (or was) primarily a top order bat - I think he was usually number 3 for Worcestershire.


IIRC, his career took off in the couple of years leading to selection. I think hed played a few years as a very average cricketer, but as Worcs came into Div 1 a few years back he by that stage was a stand out run scorer, and was scoring enough to justify consideration as a top 6.

My memory might be wrong though
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby alfie » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:10 pm

I take the point that Moeen has a very decent FC record as a batsman...and I didn't mean to write him off completely !

But if you look at his record in Test Matches you see that his performances at seven have been excellent ; solid enough at eight , and pretty awful at six. - these being the spots he's mostly occupied.

Higher up he has indeed never had a long run and the sample sizes are small ; but his ventures to the top three ,such as they were , have been disastrous . At four and five he also played a handful of innings and made two hundreds in India.

Not conclusive , yet : it does suggest he is rather more vulnerable higher up the order . And his efforts against quality pace overall haven't been altogether convincing. I see Andy suggests he could do no worse than Vince at three ? I'd question that...but in any case I don't think "doing no worse than Vince" is the standard England should be looking for in selecting their top order...

Look he may prove me wrong and bounce back at five , say ; but I wouldn't put money on it. Root at four and Stokes at six look nailed on to me ; Malan surely has earned at least more time to claim five : so the top of the order is the place they're going to be looking. I'm betting Moeen has a better chance of reclaiming the spin spot in England.. When traveling to Asia it's another story as the team balance will be different.

I like Moeen. I do think we will see more of him. Just not sure when or where.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Making_Splinters » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:59 pm

Ali's playing for RCB in the IPL isn't he? Put's pay to any early season runs if he is.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:28 pm

I hadn't realised that he had picked up an IPL gig. Not sure how much he will play, but England are very keen for these guys to get IPL experience
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