There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby meninblue » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:22 pm

Funny that someone who has publicly stated that he wants to concentrate only in white ball cricket gets selected for test format.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:00 pm

And that from next year, selections will have to be playing fc cricket!

If the rule has any merit, why then and not now!
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:41 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:And that from next year, selections will have to be playing fc cricket! If the rule has any merit, why then and not now!


What exactly happens if Rashid does well, and still cant be arsed to play for Yorkshire? Are they going to drop him then?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby captaincolly » Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:48 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:And that from next year, selections will have to be playing fc cricket! If the rule has any merit, why then and not now!


What exactly happens if Rashid does well, and still cant be arsed to play for Yorkshire? Are they going to drop him then?

It might just be fake news on Twitter but someone mentioned that at least one county expressed an interest in signing him but immediately lost interest when they were told he wouldn't consider playing red ball cricket.
If true that'd obviously be before today's recall so it will be interesting to see what happens next.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:40 pm

Kevin Pietersen was ahead of his time. He obviously thought after a poor tour of Australia, a good whistle to show you didnt give a toss would guarantee his future selection...... if only he was playing now.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:46 pm

I dont think I need another post about this. Its quite clear as time moves on that none of these guys have any clue what they are doing, they are hiding behind all this jazzy nonsensical psuedo science stuff to give depth and greater meaning to what is essentially them just taking a series of uneducated, hardly creative risks.

I ask again; whats the thought process? We picked a guy with a fc average of 50 above him. We picked a kid with about 20 wickets above him. We picked the standout spinner in CC above him, after sabotaging him to cover the selectors stupidity......

He was deemed inferior to all those people. So what changed? He hasnt played any matches to give any belief, said his passion and interest in multi day cricket had ended, retired from it....And then magically he became more appealing?

Save us the slow death. I say again, Ed Smith clearly hasnt a damn clue what hes doing. If these players do well, it isnt a reflection on him. Its like saying someone who rolls a 6 on a dice is a genius.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:09 pm

one magic ball and the rule book gets torn up

I look forward to seeing highlights of all these magic balls as the series progresses

then again...... Bess and Leach don't instill confidence in me (I haven't seen either bowl a single ball, obviously, being one of the 20 million potential cricket watchers who can't watch), so I have always supposed that by the time India came around, Moeen would be back in the side
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby ianp1970 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 6:22 pm

A new breed of cricketer is born:

White-ball and Test players

Coming soon to a county near you...
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:57 pm

It's not a betrayal of county cricket, of course..... it can't be because Ed Smith said it wasn't

Hey..... it's a gut punt it's absolutely not a gut punt, but if it works as well as the JB2 punt (assuming the JB2 punt works out again) then Mr S will feel vindicated
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:40 am

Nothing to say that hasn't already been said. Agree with all the above.

At least Porter gets in on consistent cc form.

It's abundantly clear Smith hasn't got a modding clue, though.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Alviro Patterson » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:35 am

Don't think Rashid was in a position to say no to a test recall without losing his place in the England white ball team. Leach and Bess training with England in the run-up to the opening test suggests they are still in contention.

Don't necessarily agree with Ed Smith's selection logic, but understand the reasoning since Leach and Bess are not match sharp while there are no other viable alternatives in county cricket. Next year there is going to be a run of County Championship matches leading towards The Ashes, better than playing three rounds of red ball cricket and a spate of Blast matches inbetween.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:56 am

Alviro Patterson wrote:Don't think Rashid was in a position to say no to a test recall without losing his place in the England white ball team. Leach and Bess training with England in the run-up to the opening test suggests they are still in contention


If England dropped Rashid from the limited overs team, I think it would be the start of a revolution, with people being fed to the guillotine.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:36 am

Alviro Patterson wrote:Don't necessarily agree with Ed Smith's selection logic, but understand the reasoning since Leach and Bess are not match sharp while there are no other viable alternatives in county cricket


While its not an attack on you, you are well entitled to conclude that there are no alternatives/match sharp competition based on whatever definition you give it, I do ask what is the reasoning in making that assessment in the case of Smith? Rashid hasnt bowled in a 4 day game for sometime, who is to say he can bowl 50-70 overs in a game if required, and to what standard? Who's to say Amar Virdi hasnt done a similar amount to Dominic Bess at the same age (hes certainly displayed more than Crane)? Why was one picked and the other not? Even something as small as these issues highlight just how bad the current selection thinking is.

The fact is, Smith's job really shouldnt be to pick from a list of names displaying his "cricket judgement". This view of his role and what its become smacks of that old world, upper class Oxbridge graduate type of outlook on business (no surprise considering the ECB). In the professional world, if a key decision maker was to make critical decisions and was to send an email saying "just had a hunch" they'd probably be sacked. When that old boy environment exists, it always fails. You can go anywhere, to any person who specialises in the process of decision making, and they will tell you the first golden rule is "hero decision making" is the worst type of decision making there is. There are whole industry standardised qualifications like Prince2 that hammer that home.

This might sound utterly irrelevant, but when you have a common successful goal to achieve as a collective, you have to structure the way you get an answer on how it is done by asking and answering all the relevant questions. For a start, what is success? What is the goal? Once thats defined you dont just blast out a list of end ways to get there based on whats perceived as key decision maker "specialist judgement". The final answer should be shaped by the results of all the minute questions and criteria that you set, not just some strategic nonsense created with a pen and a napkin while the sales director has a drink. And those questions are over seen and made accountable by your peers overlooking your progress.

To explain that as an example, what defines match sharpness? If we are dropping players on that basis, then has it been defined? Is there a criteria in place to judge if a player is fit enough or sharp enough? How many overs are they expected to have bowled in a given time period? Does it have to be a multiple format, or in a given format related to the selection in hand? At the moment, I see Rashid not bowled more than 10 overs in a game, so what says he can get through 20 overs in a day maintaining quality? Bess just had a first class game where he bowled 30 overs, so again, what are the steps being made to make this judgement?

In a healthy system, every player should know what is required of them. And every selector should know what is required from a player. And that figure should be set in stone, it should be tangible. A first class player should come into contention after a certain amount of games maintaining a required standard of results. That figure should be balanced or magnified by their overall career performance. A selector should know how many games a youngster needs to prove he has it. When a person is picked in the team, there should be a targeted level of performance measured over an initial period of games. Once established, he should maintain form of a specific amount of runs/wickets relating to his career performance.

It is setting these boundaries where cricketing judgement and great management manifest itself. The final decision to make a player then is not the result of a five minute conversation where all the metric of data and performance are left to off hand hutches, the selection team end with 15 names that fulfill all criteria, and then they make choices.

Selection at the heart needs to be inclusive, and the whole ecosystem lives and dies by the decisions that are made. Picking Rashid, while it might work and he goes onto become the next Shane Warne, might leave a collective legacy of all those young spinners trying a little less. If you continue to give 15 straight caps to Malan, who's average hovers permanently in the high 20s to lowest 30s, what does that say to the next guy coming, and what he has to achieve to get a long run.

At the moment, if I were a 20 year old spinner Id be very worried about myself. Dominate the discipline for a few years like Leach, get told you havent displayed mental maturity enough and arent ready for it. Get told you are the next best thing like Crane, get one test and be told you are a long term project; but then dont get picked in the Lions, which means your actually an abandoned project. Play a handful of games and told the job is yours at 20, 2 months later bowling for the second XI like Bess. Meanwhile, some guy who doesnt want to play, hasnt played, hasnt excelled really in the FC like others.... he gets picked.

So what was expected of Bess in April? Was he expected to win the series on his own to get a 3rd game? If so, why is he dropped for a guy averaging 42, so surely this guy hasnt done it either. If Crane was a long term project why was he dropped after one game from all levels of the national setup? If Leach is clearly demonstrating he is the consistent guy around, why did he get only one game, what did he have to do in that game? Is it realistic?

Quite literally, on every level, this is utterly shambolic management. It will not improve either. Buttler could go on to be Tendulkar, but the right answer from a wrong process in an isolated case will not help the common goal of building a consistent, world class side.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby budgetmeansbudget » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:47 pm

Is he likely to play?

Root and Ali are the form red ball spinners right now, three spinners in English conditions? Surely not, even in a dry summer.

Mind you why cause all this controversy if you aren't intending to play him?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby alfie » Fri Jul 27, 2018 3:01 pm

Strange selection at first sight and it does have the feel of "producing a rabbit (or a Rashid) from a hat "... Suppose if it comes off no one will worry much. Smith already has form with the Buttler pick for Pakistan : which has generally been seen as a success though I would argue that the jury is still out - it didn't help win the first Test and although Buttler made two scores batting late in the order he really did nothing YJB or Moeen hadn't been doing in similar spots in the order. So he will now have two "wildcard" picks trying to justify his intuition...

I see many - not just on here - are unhappy with the departure from normal selection processes ; in fairness Smith does say it ain't happening again but is a special case to fit the current situation...once again , results will define the verdict.

Is it justified ? I wouldn't have done it myself : while Rashid does look to have improved I'd question whether he will much bother India's Test bats in five day mode . (It seems certain Rashid will play as he has been picked - in preference to Leach - to turn the ball away from the right handlers ; while Moeen seems to be recalled as the best batsman who can also spin it the other way in case two spinners are needed.)
It is the two spin thing bothers me most as I'm not sure any spin combination will be hugely effective at Edgbaston , even in dry conditions , unless the pace men take out the top order. And with five matches coming close together I see a big risk of Broad and Anderson being heavily burdened right from the start . Or else (madness in my view , but who knows ?) they might shed a batsman - ie Malan and pick six bowlers...

3 bat 2 wk 6 bowl ... They wouldn't , would they ?
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