There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:04 pm

sussexpob wrote:I am always skeptical when a players overall average over a long career is simply not to standard of International mention.


I agree with this now, maybe under your influence. There used to be a vogue for the magic pick, perhaps tellingly always exemplified by the same two batters, Trescothick and Vaughan where a sort of hunch pick is allowed to outweigh hard stats and substantial evidence of long term quality.

And there is the case of Joe Root. Maybe the exceptional talents can be picked in spite of a lack of a body of work at a lower level (I'd include Root and pre-injury Vaughan in there) but for the ordinary player a good year of cricket isn't enough and seems now obviously not to be a reliable justification for selection (the Duckett option).

It's hard to believe that thirty year olds with mid thirty averages can be included in this exceptional category. I tend to agree that for the mortal, a long period of strong returns makes for a better bet than a streak of form.

Of course, nothing is certain. If there's any cricketer about with those years of stats (save the invisible Hildreth) it's Gary Ballance.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:02 pm

On the most general of levels, you get two types of players who generally make test candidates, and their routes are obviously different; the youth prodigy that scores runs instantly is fast tracked, or those that go under the radar as younger players who get to the mid 20s with standout performances and are picked then. For me you should only be picking 30 year olds if they are one of these types of players, maybe been ignored by a strong setup, or failed in a limited sample and have gone back and worked on their game and matured.

It gets more nuanced in terms of what the other categories of picks are. I dont personally agree with your assessment above, not because its inherently wrong, but because I feel that Fletcher created the a 4th type of selection criteria. Whether or not this has any use in the modern game is neither here nor there, as Fletcher was overseeing a period of English cricket that was radically different to all others; that being, a huge spell of decline in the game, where anyone who had played 4 matches well got a cap and was dropped for not instantly becoming Bradman. He had to come into a scene where all of his options were damaged goods and dig up some gold.

I think rather than looking for magic, Fletcher went back to players who had excelled at junior levels, and had gone towards the mid-20s without standing out. Its worth noting that, again, the culture of cricket in those days was much less professional, less centralised, much more detached. Players had other careers outside the game to earn money. I think Fletcher realised that, tried to create an environment where those players could flourish, gave relevance and the places for them to bring out their latent abilities. And that worked. I dont think he picked Trescothick and Vaughan out of desperation, I think he looked at them and thought he could properly make them play to international class given the right space and time. Someone like Vaughan got good backing for instance, apart from maybe his innings on his home ground vs Windies in 2000 (the Caddick test) where he played a gorgeous innings in tough conditions, he spent a lot of his early few series failing. But he kept getting innings.

Stoneman isnt this though. I think he is the last category. The pure magic pick.

The interesting thing is, without the consistent failure, the late 90s environment is starting to come back. The national team and ECB are pushing 4 day county cricket towards oblivion. The test scene has rendered the county scene as a graveyard of talent thats been chewed up and spat out. And the development teams have started to simply reward teenagers or barely experienced first class cricketers who came out of schoolboy representation, rather than looking to capture those doing well. For people who are 23-24, not in the Lions, and not currently smashing 60 runs per innings, there is little motivation to perform. The best example can be found in Stoneman's batting partner, who is 25 and not got a mention, despite averaging very similarly to him for the last 2 years. Whats the point of averaging 42 for a decent team if you cant even get your name mentioned in a hat filled with pure desperation?

Without any standout selections coming in, Id rather see England go back to another approach other than this "magic" nonsense. Sam Robson came into test cricket with a reputation and is averaging 50, why not give him another longer run? Why not start to check out a few of the younger guys?

If we are picking mid 30s averages, Id much rather see someone like Daniel Bell Drummond given a chance. He's done well at times, was ignored, so maybe thats the reason his career has lost focus? What about people like his team mate, Northeast, who was a kid prodigy who struggled under the radar as a younger guy looking to cut it, but has quitely now taking his career average a fraction below 40?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:11 pm

The Lions system is the main failure of the setup. Bhavi is absolutely correct for bashing on about the lack of cricket it plays, but one also has to ask why a batsman who is 24 and averaging 47 in his career goes to the Lions, smashes 129* in a scintillating effort vs South Africa A, and then gets dumped from the drawing board because the team selected him for a T20 series, when he has no form in his career in that format? Why isnt Crane in the Lions when surely hes the perfect candidate? Why did Vince average under double digits on the longest Lions series in recent times, and be the only person in the team to be capped? Along with the worst bowler on tour?

Lions tours seem to be more about being part of something rather than an indication of how people can make a step up. No wonder its not working. England should be saying to the press "new caps come from the Lions. To get into the Lions you need to show x performance over x amount of time"..... there should be a clear plan. Yet without one, its carnage.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:53 pm

sussexpob wrote:If we are picking mid 30s averages, Id much rather see someone like Daniel Bell Drummond given a chance. He's done well at times, was ignored, so maybe thats the reason his career has lost focus? What about people like his team mate, Northeast, who was a kid prodigy who struggled under the radar as a younger guy looking to cut it, but has quitely now taking his career average a fraction below 40?


Division 2 doesn't often count. Ideally they would get a chance with the Lions but as you say that set up has been marginalised- seemingly at the expense of Flower's coaching clinics.

Probably Flower doesn't have the coaching eye of Fletcher, who brought a number of players through from CC with him, notably the oft mentioned Vaughan and Tresco, but also Harmison and Simon Jones. OK, he promoted McGrath and Adams too, but that was a fair success rate. As well as bringing back people deemed to have failed, like White and Cork or getting the best out of players who were losing their way, like Thorpe and Caddick. Again not everything worked in this category, such as Hick, Ramps and Tufnell.

Fletcher gets criticism for his last wave of picks, players like Mahmood and Plunkett. But he had been out the county game for five years by then.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby greyblazer » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:34 pm

I see a bit of discussion on Westley. I like what I see. But, just feel with his (closed grip) and the way he hangs back, Westley will edge quite a few in Australia.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Dr Cricket » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:39 pm

TBH I am a supporter of A team tours and under 19 tours but not the way ECB run it though.
really the lions set up got no purpose.
really majority of the time the selectors and flower already picked the next player in the rank and the lions games got no bearing on the selection and then the media pr can be annoying especially when being selected for the high performance set up etc is more of a major talking point than actually playing games for the county or even the lions set up.
god knows how many times i seen some of the ecb press mentions players like tom helm, or other young players that are fast tracked that they are the next big thing but often haven't played enough first class games to justify being picked at a young age or not even close to england selection.

Really the lions setup could be better if the games results and statistic actually matter, if they cut down the winter squad, I think about 60 or 70 england players are doing something in the winter, really if you just doing overseas nets that shouldn't count as being in the lions setup.
play stronger opposition, no disrespect to the likes of sri lanka, pakistan and South africa but they not really going to challenge or give any good indication of international quality.
thirdly cut out the attitude and personality crap.

although ECB should get credit for the current india vs england under 19 series, I know england getting hammered but the players are learning way more than playing weaker nations.
England should be playing the best teams possible and in under 19 cricket, india probably the best team to face.
Saying that the current under 19 generation look awful although they are missing 2-3 players but they are mostly bowlers I think, the batting look awful, although it should be noted they are facing a very strong indian team, pritvi shah, Chahal etc are likely future indian international players or best big IPL players.

Really doesn't surprise me england struggling with selection when you considering they negated lions system for a while now, think I been ranting about the lions system since 2014 or 15.

Really the money spent on the lions setup is a waste of money, which is one reason why I use to rant about it considering it use to get cringe worthy pr from the press without any of them even looking at what the lions even do.
Although ECB should get the credit for probably starting the A tour craze again, but they probably been left behind by the likes of SA, Aus, India etc that have a far better A tour system.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Dr Cricket » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:44 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Lions tours seem to be more about being part of something rather than an indication of how people can make a step up. No wonder its not working. England should be saying to the press "new caps come from the Lions. To get into the Lions you need to show x performance over x amount of time"..... there should be a clear plan. Yet without one, its carnage.


TBH that is the case anyway, especially when they pick the winter squad where anyone with a decent county season, or prodigy is picked.
https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/112629
More than 50 players between the ages of 17 and 30 have been selected for involvement in the four components of the men’s International Pathway this winter – the Lions, the Young Lions, the Pace Programme, and Overseas Placements.

It means that all 18 first-class counties will have players abroad either with England or on the Pathway, spread around four continents.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:53 pm

watch being monty panesar you can tell how poorly monty panesar was treated by ECB.
Andrew Strauss and andy flower were very poor in managing players mental states.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:57 pm

didn't realise monty fielding was that bad when he started.
very amateur funny to watch.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:58 pm

What's that on?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:00 pm

Monty was one of the worst catchers there's been. Had a bit of an arm I think.

Michael Vaughan was exceptionally bad.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:02 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:What's that on?

sky sports cricket, a doc on Monty england career.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:21 pm

crazy that ECB selected him for that winter ashes tour, surely then ECB should have known monty was not in the right state to play for england.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Making_Splinters » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:05 am

What have we learned so far this summer? Not much sadly.

Jennings lost his early season form before he played the first Test of the summer, hard for any player to get back into form against the South African attack. Hameed has gone completely off the boil this season, does raise the question of if both Hameed and Jennings are good enough to play at this level or were their early successes just a product of being in a purple patch.

Ballance doesn't seemed to have worked out the flaws in his technique that good pace bowlers can exploit despite having a staggering average in the LVCC this year. I can see the arguments for picking a player that is scoring that heavily in domestic cricket, but surely he's shown he's not the answer. It's too early to make a call on Westly just yet, he does seem to have a habit of not getting into the right position to play the ball but is probably worth persisting with. Malan may have scored some runs this Test, but even when he was set it's hard to say he was exactly convincing. There was a bit of a feeling about here we go again with Stoneman getting out cheaply but to be fair to him he got the best ball of the innings.

It seems pretty obvious to me that we need to split up the new players coming into the top order, it doesn't seem wise to have a rookie opener and first drop into another rookie at 5 should one of Cook or Root fail. Surely we should have a top order of: Cook, New Opener, Root, New Batsman, Stokes / Bairstow / Ali, New Batsman - Just to split up the experienced players a little better.

Should Stoneman have a very poor series we're in the same position we were last time we went to Australia, blooding a new opener in the Ashes against a good Australian pace attack. I guess if it comes to that we just have to hope that one of Hameed or Jennings has gotten back into form. Hales is the stand out player to take as a spare batsman / replace Malan. Burns, Robson and Browne are all having good seasons at the top of the order so there are options there.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:16 am

Bairstow, Stokes and Moeen have consolidated their positions as Test bats and arguably made a case for moving up a spot each.
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