There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 15, 2018 9:36 pm

The selection of Buttler feels like another disappointing slight to the status of the CC.

They go back to the player they know rather than showing a little judicious optimism towards the younger players coming through and playing fc cricket.

From memory, Buttler is a lower thirties averaging batter, who is going to play as a specialist bat. 31.5 it is. Four tons. Even worse, he's stopped trying to succeed in fc cricket.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 15, 2018 9:37 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:would they just throw Bess straight in? I'm not aware that he's been involved in any of the usual ECB approved routes into the team, which would make a mockery of the various England development programmes

Perhaps they are going to prepare a green top anyway.... or are they too afraid of what the Pakistan seamers might do to a batting line up consisting entirely of players shorn of form, confidence or red ball cricket to do that?


Bess played for the Lions in WI.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 15, 2018 9:47 pm

He's nearly 21. Hopefully it's not an omen that he made another debut against Pakistan (fc, 2016) because he didn't take a wicket and was expensive. 16 fc games. Averages 25.4 with the bat, one ton and two fifties. 22.5 with the ball, econ under three. Seven 5-fers in those 16 games. At Ciderabad admittedly, but impressive.

Just for contrast, the Pakistan spinner Shadab Khan is nineteen.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue May 15, 2018 9:56 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
Bess played for the Lions in WI.
did he?

so presumably that means we intend to prepare the kind of complete bunsens found on that WI tour.

I see that he played one match and took 5 wickets at 22's. Leach took 18 at 21's, whilst those household names of Warrican (31 at 9's) and Dwaine Leverock Cornwall (19 at 18's) tore our batting to shreds.

Hey... perhaps he will play... perhaps he'll play well..... and perhaps 1 match does actually constitute coming through the established England development system and isn't just a left of field old fashioned punt because we can't have the spinner we really wanted
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue May 15, 2018 9:57 pm

if he does play and doesn't play well, then at least the development system can't be held accountable... which might be the point
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue May 15, 2018 9:59 pm

he does well... system is brilliant... he doesn't.... not the system's fault

should be politicians these selectors
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby m@tt » Tue May 15, 2018 10:26 pm

I’m pleased for Bess. Yes he is young but he is talented and has performed very well for Somerset so far. It would have been too soon for Ali to return, too soon for Virdi to be called up, whilst Crane is injured. A shame for Leach though, really unlucky to get injured.

Not fussed at all about Vince missing out. Yes he got a big score for Hampshire this week but has anything changed? (To be fair to him, reports are it was a very restrained innings) All winter, he simultaneously looked either hitting any ball to the cover boundary or knicking it behind. You need confidence in your #3, I had none in him.

I think what the retention of Stoneman and the lack of a new batsman says is that the contenders (Clarke, Gubbins, Livingstone et al) need more time and more runs. Or it means that Smith just doesn’t know that much about them. Whichever it is, Stoneman is fortunate.

In the meantime, Buttler benefits. Part of me is glad to see his talent given (another) opportunity - it goes without saying that he can be freakishly good against the white ball. But part of me worries it could affect his white ball form. And part of me worries what message it sends out to the those working their socks off in the County Championship. He will be a specialist batsman - therefore he needs to respond with lots of runs. Brisk 30s won’t cut it.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby ianp1970 » Tue May 15, 2018 10:50 pm

Has any great test side - or a good or decent one for that matter - ever had a specialist bat at 7?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby m@tt » Tue May 15, 2018 11:04 pm

ianp1970 wrote:Has any great test side - or a good or decent one for that matter - ever had a specialist bat at 7?


http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... e=allround

That's a list of runs made at #7 when not keeping wicket. As you can see, most are all-rounders.

I would suggest Clive Lloyd who had 700+ runs with 1 century at #7. He did bowl but it was occasional medium, resulting in just 10 wickets from 110 Tests.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Alviro Patterson » Tue May 15, 2018 11:06 pm

ianp1970 wrote:Has any great test side - or a good or decent one for that matter - ever had a specialist bat at 7?


I seem to remember JP Duminy playing at 7 on one occasion

Makes you wonder whether England have got inspiration from Yorkshire batting Jack Leaning at 7 in the last two CC matches, or was it forwarded by Root and the ECB?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Tue May 15, 2018 11:48 pm

I can only assume that Buttler's re-inclusion and Stoneman's retention is indicative of the dearth of any other obvious picks from the early county season rather than their actual merit in the long form at this stage.

It does feel odd that Stoneman stays and Vince goes given their respective form, but I'd argue both of them should have been chucked. Still, not a great look for the selectors.

England are going to have to pray for Anderson and Broad to deliver the goods. I wouldn't be that surprised if they do, at least in one of the two tests, but really beyond Root, Anderson, Broad, Cook and Bairstow, the cupboard looks pretty bare at the moment, both in the playing XI and the counties (and let's face it, Anderson's going to go after the 2019 Ashes at the latest, and Cook needs to recover some form soon or will be on the way out - he's looked past it for most of the last year, with a couple of brilliant knocks showing that he still has international class).
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby m@tt » Tue May 15, 2018 11:55 pm

bigfluffylemon wrote:I can only assume that Buttler's re-inclusion and Stoneman's retention is indicative of the dearth of any other obvious picks from the early county season rather than their actual merit in the long form at this stage.

It does feel odd that Stoneman stays and Vince goes given their respective form, but I'd argue both of them should have been chucked. Still, not a great look for the selectors.


I think the difference is that the selectors knew who they wanted to replace Vince (Buttler), but it's less clear with Stoneman.

That's not to say there aren't options (they could have picked Gubbins, Jennings or Burns to name but three), just that given the revolving door of openers we've had since 2012, it's a bit too easy to say "Player X is the answer". It also gives Smith more time to assess those options.

Personally I'd have cut my losses - as with Vince, I'm not sure we're going to see Stoneman performing much better at Test level than he is already doing.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby bigfluffylemon » Wed May 16, 2018 3:11 am

The other consideration I guess is that between Pakistan's fast bowling attack, and conditions in May, any new opener will pretty much be set up to fail anyway.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Wed May 16, 2018 8:44 am

It just makes me wonder exactly what is going on at the ECB. We were sold this masterplan in the winter by Strauss, of new scouting systems, dedicated to each format, that would watch all the games, all the players, produce massive analysis of them all, and feed in to county expert selectors who are close to the ground on whats happening..... lalala Im struggling therefore to see the impact of this system in this squad? What are these scouts doing? If they are producing reports, has Ed Smith burnt them?

Discounting Broad, Anderson, Root, Cook, Malan and Bairstow, all of which seem to be comfortably in the squad regardless of form.....

Batters in the top 7

Stokes - He'd be comfortably in the team if it wasnt for his personal issues this summer. He's not played any FC cricket, and is currently enduring a horror show IPL with both disciplines. Literally scored no runs, been poor with the ball.
Stoneman - Has top scored with 29 in 5 county games, and cant get a bat on ball
Buttler - A pick that has no objective sense in it whatsoever


Bowlers
Wood - Been unfit for 4 games, taken only 7 wickets all season. Long term fitness worries have immediately been present this season.
Woakes - No FC cricket since being dropped. Hardly played in the IPL, where he averages single figures with bat, and econ of 11 with ball.
Bess - 1 wicket in 2 county games, at the 3rd worst average of all bowlers to take a wicket this year.

Meanwhile, other names that were on the list of possible test picks in the last 12 months

Vince - Scored most runs for an English qualified player in the CC.
Foakes - Averages 53 this year.
Jake Ball - 27 wickets at 17
Jamie Porter - 16 wickets at 24
Keaton Jennings - 2 x 100s and average of 45
Overton - Average 30 with bat, 37 with ball
Gubbins - Average 71


What are these scouts watching? Have they in any case picked form over name? Does form mean anything? Does scoring runs in county cricket mean anything? I mean, what can a scout say of Stoneman this year? Not many balls to assess. How can Foakes make the Ashes Squad, make runs, and be dropped for a player who hasnt scored a single first class run?

Where is the method in this madness? Strauss banging on about this and that aside, does this selection not do anything but prove this England setup have lost the plot?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby sussexpob » Wed May 16, 2018 8:52 am

I mean, what has Smith done to address problems in the squad after the Winter? He's recycled the same back up bowlers, both who have long term questions with fitness and form. He's picked a 20 year old inexperienced spinner, but the key is hes a guy who isnt on form (you have to pick guys like this that at least carry form).....

And with the batters he picked essentially the same flops, but supplemented it with a previous test flop that has done absolutely nothing to justify, even in a short sample of games (because he hasnt played any) that he is up to the job. Buttler has played 18 tests with no hundred, its hardly like he didnt get a good run. And as a specialist bat? This is madness.

So we go into the first test with one opener incapable of scoring a run, another ageing legend seemingly on his last legs. A new number three who hasnt really sparked at 5 with a test average of 30. A number 4 who is bang out of form. A number 5 who hasnt batted that high in ages. A number 6 who might be in prison by the end of the summer, and who cant buy a run at the moment. And a 7 who never could buy a run.

What the hell do we expect to happen? There seems little unproven mystery here, no risk whatsoever. An out of form batting line up cemented in?

Id literally sack Smith straight away. Id sack Strauss too. After such a massively poor winter, this squad is unacceptable.
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