There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Slipstream » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:39 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Fair points. Finn has actually maintained reasonable stats throughout. Everyone forgets that England have been turning out fairly bland pitches for their bowlers for the last couple of years. If Finn had bowled on more helpful tracks, maybe he'd be in better shape to play in Australia.


I suppose Flower has to listen to Saker who has said that Finn has to groove his new action. Should have left Finn alone and not messed with an action that got him into the England team. The quicker a bowler nails down that 3rd seamer position the better but I think for England that is a horses for courses position. If you look at South Africa, Steyn, Philander and Morkel bowl on all types of wickets.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:54 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote: If Finn had bowled on more helpful tracks, maybe he'd be in better shape to play in Australia.

hard to say, really. The think tank have had plenty of opportunity to watch him in the nets and in the warm up matches, both home and abroad, yet clearly don't fancy what they see atm. The fact that Tremlett even made the squad suggests to me that they'd picked their starting XI back in England in Sept, on a bit of a Saker hunch. Now they are having to have a major rethink whilst being simultaneously battered by Australia............. who are still a pretty poor team, IMO.

I think England had their game plan made at the end of the English summer. They didn't anticipate any of this (neither did I, tbh), but they picked 4 number 6's, and 3 number 11's, because they couldn't really make their minds up over the 2 places that were up for grabs, and now that the sh1t has hit the fan they can't really bring in other players to change the original strategy because then they just look stupid for picking the players they did in the first place.

I still can't really believe that the 'come on Aussie, come on, come on' strategy has worked so well. It highlights what an @rse the selectors made of the touring party. Still.................. we are where we are, and these boys will have to find some way of digging themselves out of the big bloody hole that they dug for themselves in the first place. Make no mistake, Aus have not put England in this predicament, England have done this to themselves.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:25 pm

The most obvious reason for what has happened is that Johnson has been incredible. None of the other bowlers, including Harris, have caused serious problems. Though they've not had to. It's been like Wasim and Waqar. We get starts, but as soon as MJ gets a bit of reverse, we're bollocksed. In this Test anyway, Brisbane was more about bounce.

About Finn, I meant if the pitches helped him at home, he might have kept his place in the side, and been more likely to be ready to bowl on bouncy pitches in Australia. But that's a rather fuzzy what-if. And obviously he's got issues with his action and run up.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Red Devil » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:12 pm

hopeforthebest wrote:
Woakes seems to be a forgotten man yet he showed promise with the bat at the Oval an didn't disgrace himself with the ball.


I think the Eng thinktank are worried by his lack of pace - that's why they prefer Stokes
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:14 pm

Probably better with the bat though. His pace was better last summer too.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby hopeforthebest » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:28 am

Woakes is swing bowler and the Oval offered him no help, that's probably why he was left out of this squad. Batting wise he's been well coached in a classical technique and plays very straight. Almost certainly any future with test cricket will be primarily basedf upon his batting rather than bowling.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:55 am

Red Devil wrote:
hopeforthebest wrote:
Woakes seems to be a forgotten man yet he showed promise with the bat at the Oval an didn't disgrace himself with the ball.


I think the Eng thinktank are worried by his lack of pace - that's why they prefer Stokes

absolutely they want bowlers to have pace, that's why they've ditched Onions. They have identified him as losing pace after recovering from his back op.

Makes the selection of Chris 77mph Tremlett even more strange.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:02 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:The most obvious reason for what has happened is that Johnson has been incredible.

I imagine that he must have been, given the difficulty the batsmen have had playing him. I'd have thought that the batsmen would have worked on that after Brisbane. They are professionals, after all. Bell seems to be coping okay judging by how fluently he seems to have been scoring his runs amidst the carnage at the other end, so perhaps the score card says more about the batting than the bowling. Don't get me wrong.... Johno seems to have found some control, and he deserves much credit for that, but I'd be prepared to bet that a decent number of his wickets were taken with the batsmens head rather than with the ball
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:09 am

Bell got caught by a short ball early on that looped into the gully area but didn't go to hand. A bit of luck, which allowed him to play well afterwards. For the others, it seems to have found the fielder. Sometimes you need a bit of luck.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Kim » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:32 am

Durhamfootman wrote:
Red Devil wrote:
hopeforthebest wrote:
Woakes seems to be a forgotten man yet he showed promise with the bat at the Oval an didn't disgrace himself with the ball.


I think the Eng thinktank are worried by his lack of pace - that's why they prefer Stokes

absolutely they want bowlers to have pace, that's why they've ditched Onions. They have identified him as losing pace after recovering from his back op.

Makes the selection of Chris 77mph Tremlett even more strange.


Praicularly when the England analyst, Neil Lennon/Lemmon, has analysed the link between success and pace in tests and found

>84 optimum

81-84 No worries

Less than 81 Uh oh!
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Making_Splinters » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:48 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:
Red Devil wrote:
hopeforthebest wrote:
Woakes seems to be a forgotten man yet he showed promise with the bat at the Oval an didn't disgrace himself with the ball.


I think the Eng thinktank are worried by his lack of pace - that's why they prefer Stokes

absolutely they want bowlers to have pace, that's why they've ditched Onions. They have identified him as losing pace after recovering from his back op.

Makes the selection of Chris 77mph Tremlett even more strange.


Tremlett was picked based on the last Ashes in Australia, anyone who'd watched him last season knew he didn't have his pace anymore.
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Durhamfootman » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:41 pm

Now that I've gone from being distraught to being accepting about the dire situation that England find themselves in in this series, I can sort of see the tiniest chink of light for England.

From what I can tell, Johnson is causing havoc and probably represents the biggest difference between the 2 sides. It seems to be his raw pace and aggression combined with a bit more control that is causing all the problems (I'm choosing to ignore the England batsmens propensity to give their wickets away, you understand).

Yet in this match, Cook aside, he hasn't managed to take the wickets of Carbs, Root, KP, or Bell, and all have managed to make a half century, and better, across the two innings. That suggests to me that they have found a way to play him. Clarke seems to be using MJ in very short bursts, so not that many balls for the batsmen to endure at any one time, and I'd imagine that, given the hostility, a fair percentage of those 'not many balls' will be too short to hit the stumps. So you duck, and you weave and you do whatever you can to survive those balls without getting suckered in to going for your shots, secure in the knowledge that it isn't going to last too long before you get a breather.

What Johno has done well is completely destroy the tail, which makes him a valuable asset for Clarke, giving England no chance to hang around a la Best, or Agar, or Johnson or Starc, giving support to Bell, or Root, or, in this innings, Prior (assuming that the tail doesn't hang around tonight)

So........... going into Perth........ Cook is a slight worry, but he has loads of quality to help him overcome, and the other top 5 have all demonstrated that they have the tools to survive Johno, if they use their loaves. If they can stop getting themselves out hooking rubbish down the throat of fine leg, or getting themselves out to Steve 'Oh my gawd' Smith :facepalm , there will be opportunities to score runs. Plus Perth will give plenty of assistance to the England seamers too (as long as they don't do anything blooming stupid like selecting a 6'7 medium pacer, in no real form, on a hunch again), and Australia haven't had their own batting collapse yet........ which is coming, btw.

England will be lucky to survive an hour tonight before going 2-0 down, but perhaps they actually do have the batting line up in place to pull something out of the fire in the next 3 tests. If nothing else they do perhaps need to stick with this top 6 for the remainder of the series if they want to take anything positive out of this series, going forward into 2014.

I am prepared to let England borrow Stokesy for a bit, as long as they don't take the ssip and return him promptly in April :halo: (in good condition would be nice too)
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sun Dec 08, 2013 3:58 pm

If England have found a way to play Johnson, unfortunately it has taken them until they are 2-0 down going into the venue where they are most likely to lose. Even so, in terms of the thread, this series is is only the latest example of a trend. Problems have been apparent for a while, and the side is getting old and tired. Performances have been in in decline for two years.

Should Stokes stay in the side? Is he someone you see as a future regular who should be given a Morgan sized chance? Or was he a horses for courses pick, like Woakes, to enable the selection of a second spinner?
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Robert » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:19 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:Now that I've gone from being distraught to being accepting about the dire situation that England find themselves in in this series, I can sort of see the tiniest chink of light for England.

From what I can tell, Johnson is causing havoc and probably represents the biggest difference between the 2 sides. It seems to be his raw pace and aggression combined with a bit more control that is causing all the problems (I'm choosing to ignore the England batsmens propensity to give their wickets away, you understand).

Yet in this match, Cook aside, he hasn't managed to take the wickets of Carbs, Root, KP, or Bell, and all have managed to make a half century, and better, across the two innings. That suggests to me that they have found a way to play him. Clarke seems to be using MJ in very short bursts, so not that many balls for the batsmen to endure at any one time, and I'd imagine that, given the hostility, a fair percentage of those 'not many balls' will be too short to hit the stumps. So you duck, and you weave and you do whatever you can to survive those balls without getting suckered in to going for your shots, secure in the knowledge that it isn't going to last too long before you get a breather.

What Johno has done well is completely destroy the tail, which makes him a valuable asset for Clarke, giving England no chance to hang around a la Best, or Agar, or Johnson or Starc, giving support to Bell, or Root, or, in this innings, Prior (assuming that the tail doesn't hang around tonight)

So........... going into Perth........ Cook is a slight worry, but he has loads of quality to help him overcome, and the other top 5 have all demonstrated that they have the tools to survive Johno, if they use their loaves. If they can stop getting themselves out hooking rubbish down the throat of fine leg, or getting themselves out to Steve 'Oh my gawd' Smith :facepalm , there will be opportunities to score runs. Plus Perth will give plenty of assistance to the England seamers too (as long as they don't do anything blooming stupid like selecting a 6'7 medium pacer, in no real form, on a hunch again), and Australia haven't had their own batting collapse yet........ which is coming, btw.

England will be lucky to survive an hour tonight before going 2-0 down, but perhaps they actually do have the batting line up in place to pull something out of the fire in the next 3 tests. If nothing else they do perhaps need to stick with this top 6 for the remainder of the series if they want to take anything positive out of this series, going forward into 2014.

I am prepared to let England borrow Stokesy for a bit, as long as they don't take the ssip and return him promptly in April :halo: (in good condition would be nice too)


You've tired me out reading all that, but I''m not so sure I buy your "confidence":

1) Harris is having a quiet time - perhaps he'll come into the series now, which is particularly bad news for Cook.

2) Johnson has caused the damage with his pace, bounce, slingy action and angle - what if he gets more movement in Perth? He's done it before!
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Re: There may be troubles ahead: England selection issues.

Postby Adi » Sun Dec 08, 2013 5:14 pm

Robert wrote:
1) Harris is having a quiet time - perhaps he'll come into the series now, which is particularly bad news for Cook.

2) Johnson has caused the damage with his pace, bounce, slingy action and angle - what if he gets more movement in Perth? He's done it before!


Same set of England batters have made Mitch look below ordinary before when he had same slingy action.imo it's all about form .17 wickets in two tests suggests his prime form coupled with bad form of English specialist batters.
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