Ben Stokes

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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:04 pm

bigfluffylemon wrote:Is it possible for both parties to a brawl to be charged with common assault (or aggravated assault depending on injuries) on one another? Or is there by definition an aggressor and a victim?


Without spending 16 pages explaining it, its possible, but unlikely. If there is no witnesses and it cant be told who started it, then its a perfect grounds for affray. If its OAP, then its assumed there is an initial victim and aggressor, which makes the defence of self-defence much more likely for the initial victim to be successful. Id guess, the most likely scenario is where the initial aggressor starts the trouble, but the person deemed the victim ends up gaining the strong upper hand. In this scenario, its likely that the second person has expended their right to argue self-defence, so both commit an assault.

Much like our case here. Ben doesnt instigate it, but he certainly goes past the point of self defence. Hence, with CCTV images that show the extent and brawl quite clearly, and each interaction to it, its surprising this isnt the result in this case.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby bigfluffylemon » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:09 pm

Thanks sussex, I appreciate the time and effort spent explaining this. Very informative.

So the next piece of news to break is that despite the charge, Ben is now available for selection. The ECB has indicated that it would be 'unfair' to Ben in the light of the possible length of time it's going to take for trial to leave him unavailable for an indefinite period. Presumably this means he's also officially available for the IPL.

I am torn about this. On the one hand, one is innocent until proven guilty, and from sussex's account above, there's a reasonable chance that Ben will get off from the affray charge, or if he does get found guilty, is unlikely to end up with a custodial sentence. On the basis of which, there isn't really reasonable grounds not to let him go back to his job until this is sorted out. On the other hand, the ECB still hasn't really done any disciplinary action of its own relating to his conduct on the night as a whole - it could be construed that they are just letting it slide. He still needs to be punished for irresponsible behaviour, particularly given that it was in the middle of a series. But then by missing the Ashes, you could argue that he already has been...

On the whole, I think it would be better for him to sit out from national duty until this is over. Like it or not, representing one's country carries with it a higher standard of behaviour and responsibility than a job where you are just turning up, earning a cheque and going home again with no responsibility to anyone but yourself and your employer.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby alfie » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:34 am

All seems like a lot of common sense to me...

From what we've heard , it seems the other two fellows basically started the aggro in Bristol (one wielding a bottle ) but ended up coming off the worse for wear - and Stokes went way over what he should have in "defence" of himself or others : so no credit to any of them ; but arguably they've all suffered as a result. Would there be any great public good in prosecuting any of them to the fullest available extent ? Making it a charge of affray allows a magistrate to rap 'em all over the knuckles and get on with more important stuff.

As for the ECB : they have already caused Stokes to miss an Ashes tour , and he's lost the vice captain's job (I would be in no hurry to restore it !) : what more should he cop on top of whatever fines/orders the law might impose ? Get him back to work I reckon...he has plenty to do to win back the respect of fans , some opponents , and the teammates he rather let down through his lack of self control...
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby Gingerfinch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:31 pm

Sounds like Stokes was a little hard done by. Isn't it innocent until proven guilty, and now he's been charged with affray, which is deemed light enough for him to tour.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby GarlicJam » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:38 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:Sounds like Stokes was a little hard done by. Isn't it innocent until proven guilty, and now he's been charged with affray, which is deemed light enough for him to tour.

You really think Stokes was an innocent party in this, Ginge?
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby KipperJohn » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:50 pm

GarlicJam wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:Sounds like Stokes was a little hard done by. Isn't it innocent until proven guilty, and now he's been charged with affray, which is deemed light enough for him to tour.

You really think Stokes was an innocent party in this, Ginge?


Stokes is fortunate that he wasn’t the one with a fractured eye socket. Quite frankly I have no sympathy whatsoever for him, the others involved and not much for the ECB either.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby Gingerfinch » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 pm

GarlicJam wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:Sounds like Stokes was a little hard done by. Isn't it innocent until proven guilty, and now he's been charged with affray, which is deemed light enough for him to tour.

You really think Stokes was an innocent party in this, Ginge?


Not totally innocent but nothing had been proved. And now affray is ok with the bosses?
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby GarlicJam » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:18 pm

not my point.

the Court of Jam has viewed 17 seconds of footage a month or two back and come to a verdict of 'guilty of @rsehole behaviour' - he may not have started the incident, but he sure as hell made it much bigger and more violent than he needed to.

who knows why it has taken so long to get just this far, but that is the only possible injustice he has received so far, imo.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:27 pm

KipperJohn wrote:
GarlicJam wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:Sounds like Stokes was a little hard done by. Isn't it innocent until proven guilty, and now he's been charged with affray, which is deemed light enough for him to tour.

You really think Stokes was an innocent party in this, Ginge?


Stokes is fortunate that he wasn’t the one with a fractured eye socket. Quite frankly I have no sympathy whatsoever for him, the others involved and not much for the ECB either.

I have no sympathy either, but he is unfortunate, in that he may be found not guilty, but still having served a 4 month ban.

I tend to agree with GJ's assessment/charge
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby KipperJohn » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:38 pm

One punch can kill.

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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby meninblue » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:29 am

Ben Stokes will be strongly bidded during this weekends IPL auctions. Think he will get somewhere between 14.5 crore to 18 crore. Think at least 3 teams will bid for him between 13.5 crore to 16 crores and 2 teams between 16 to 18.5 crores.

Updates about his availability for number of matches may change the bidding amount though.

Mumbai and Delhi will exit the bidding as soon as it goes above 13 crores.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby sussexpob » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:31 am

Hasnt it been confirmed he wont leave the UK till his trial? His pre hearing is next month I believe, if he gets indicted this means he probably wont be going anywhere in 2018. Probably in his interests to plead guilty and get over with it.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby captaincolly » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:40 am

sussexpob wrote:Hasnt it been confirmed he wont leave the UK till his trial? His pre hearing is next month I believe, if he gets indicted this means he probably wont be going anywhere in 2018. Probably in his interests to plead guilty and get over with it.

Magistrate Court appearance on Feb 13th and then if it goes to Crown Court ( and most reports suggest it probably will ) the trial could be months away so almost certainly after the IPL. His initial statement after being charged strongly implies he's going to plead not guilty.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby sussexpob » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:44 am

captaincolly wrote:
sussexpob wrote:Hasnt it been confirmed he wont leave the UK till his trial? His pre hearing is next month I believe, if he gets indicted this means he probably wont be going anywhere in 2018. Probably in his interests to plead guilty and get over with it.

Magistrate Court appearance on Feb 13th and then if it goes to Crown Court ( and most reports suggest it probably will ) the trial could be months away so almost certainly after the IPL. His initial statement after being charged strongly implies he's going to plead not guilty.


IIRC from my studies all those years ago, the average time from crime to court appearance is 9-10 months, so that would indicate early summer would be about the time, although as a high profile case it might be pushed forward (although that might not be in his interests if preparing a defence).

If it is indeed true he wont be outside the UK till its over, then the IPL is almost certainly off.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby captaincolly » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:11 pm

sussexpob wrote:
captaincolly wrote:
sussexpob wrote:Hasnt it been confirmed he wont leave the UK till his trial? His pre hearing is next month I believe, if he gets indicted this means he probably wont be going anywhere in 2018. Probably in his interests to plead guilty and get over with it.

Magistrate Court appearance on Feb 13th and then if it goes to Crown Court ( and most reports suggest it probably will ) the trial could be months away so almost certainly after the IPL. His initial statement after being charged strongly implies he's going to plead not guilty.


IIRC from my studies all those years ago, the average time from crime to court appearance is 9-10 months, so that would indicate early summer would be about the time, although as a high profile case it might be pushed forward (although that might not be in his interests if preparing a defence).

If it is indeed true he wont be outside the UK till its over, then the IPL is almost certainly off.

I think he is joining up with the England squad in NZ as soon as he has appeared in court on Feb 13th. He tweeted this morning :" ...it would not be right to join my team mates until after attending court on the 13th." According to the BBC he could play in the second T20 match on February 18th.

This has no real connection but the Worcestershire player accused of rape last year appeared in Court earlier this month , pleaded not guilty ... and the trial is due to start in January next year!
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